Dangerous Unemployment
What’s wrong with these two pictures? I believe there is a dangerous disconnect between the “investor class” and everyone else in the country. The Dow keeps climbing and jobs keep disappearing. If this situation is not to dissolve into class warfare, our collective establishment (government and business leaders) better figure out a way to start creating jobs pretty quickly or your going to see the pitchfork brigades descend on both Washington and Wall Street. Already the signs of class tensions are high as the Pew Foundation found out last month when they asked what were the sources of conflict between social groups.
Both immigration and anger at the rich are sources of lower and middle class conflict. We don’t like to use those words in America, but there is no other way to describe this. In the 1930′s Depression this took two distinct paths–the Nativist/right wing vitriol of Father Coughlin and the “soak the rich” populism of Huey Long. Roosevelt had to thread the needle between fascism and socialism, but without the WPA putting people back to work, the country could have been taken over by the demagogues. God knows we have enough Father Coughlin’s to staff a whole cable TV network 24-7.
Obama needs a Digital Green WPA. If we could build the Hoover Dam in 1936, we could get started now on the massive solar and wind power opportunities to put people back to work.
The mid-terms are 13 months away…jobs, Jobs, JOBS and homes, Homes, HOMES!
The mid-terms are 13 months away…jobs, Jobs, JOBS and homes, Homes, HOMES!
The job market for 20-somethings in Portland Oregon is non-existant. Piles of applications sit on desks, and older over qualified, experienced folk are called in to fill entry positions.
I wonder how the GOP thinks this will work for them?
The job market for 20-somethings in Portland Oregon is non-existant. Piles of applications sit on desks, and older over qualified, experienced folk are called in to fill entry positions.
I wonder how the GOP thinks this will work for them?
I keep seeing the “unemployment is slowing” meme on the MSM. What do they use to support that? Jobless claims (people filing). No mention that this has been going on so long many have probably run out of benefits and are still jobless. Also not mentioned are the (probably millions?) of underemployed…those with one or two part-time jobs who aren’t on the unemployment rolls but still 1) can’t make ends meet and 2) don’t have access to employer subsidized health insurance but quite possibly don’t qualify for Medicaid either.
You are right, Jon, there is a HUGE disconnect. People without jobs (or with minimal jobs) can’t prop up our consumer-based economy and, quite frankly, as long as those in our government continue to grant the wishes of the investor class while ignoring the rest of us, I refuse to do so as well. In other words, I’m still voting with my wallet.
I keep seeing the “unemployment is slowing” meme on the MSM. What do they use to support that? Jobless claims (people filing). No mention that this has been going on so long many have probably run out of benefits and are still jobless. Also not mentioned are the (probably millions?) of underemployed…those with one or two part-time jobs who aren’t on the unemployment rolls but still 1) can’t make ends meet and 2) don’t have access to employer subsidized health insurance but quite possibly don’t qualify for Medicaid either.
You are right, Jon, there is a HUGE disconnect. People without jobs (or with minimal jobs) can’t prop up our consumer-based economy and, quite frankly, as long as those in our government continue to grant the wishes of the investor class while ignoring the rest of us, I refuse to do so as well. In other words, I’m still voting with my wallet.
The morning news here said the unemployment in the 18 to 24 years olds was approximately 52%. My son who is a computer science student is cashiering at a supermarket and glad to get it.
Sand Mountain (twenty miles from where I sit) where T-Bone and Alan Lomax recorded sacred harp is now Meth Mountain.
The morning news here said the unemployment in the 18 to 24 years olds was approximately 52%. My son who is a computer science student is cashiering at a supermarket and glad to get it.
Sand Mountain (twenty miles from where I sit) where T-Bone and Alan Lomax recorded sacred harp is now Meth Mountain.
“I wonder how the GOP thinks this will work for them?”
What is that supposed to mean, Ken?
Do you think the GOP is responsible for the high unemployment rate? That’s strange because Portland, much like my hometown of Seattle, is one of the most liberal cities in the country. When was the last time the GOP controlled anything in Oregon?
I think Portland’s college drop out mayor should focus more on the economy and less on having sex with teenaged boys.
“I wonder how the GOP thinks this will work for them?”
What is that supposed to mean, Ken?
Do you think the GOP is responsible for the high unemployment rate? That’s strange because Portland, much like my hometown of Seattle, is one of the most liberal cities in the country. When was the last time the GOP controlled anything in Oregon?
I think Portland’s college drop out mayor should focus more on the economy and less on having sex with teenaged boys.
To the simple-minded, the answer is simple: “It’s all Obama’s fault!” All that’s needed now from the gullets of the bird’s nest swallows on the Right is enough regurgitated goo to make it stick. Already, everyone pretty much has forgiven and forgotten the source of the #!*>%& flood tide of shit that the scumsucking parasites that hide behind the Red Flag swooshed across the RedWhite&Blurred landscape. Bush? Rove, Gingrich, DeLay. who they?
My bet is we ain’t smart enough to do any better from here on out. Emphasize “out.”
To the simple-minded, the answer is simple: “It’s all Obama’s fault!” All that’s needed now from the gullets of the bird’s nest swallows on the Right is enough regurgitated goo to make it stick. Already, everyone pretty much has forgiven and forgotten the source of the #!*>%& flood tide of shit that the scumsucking parasites that hide behind the Red Flag swooshed across the RedWhite&Blurred landscape. Bush? Rove, Gingrich, DeLay. who they?
My bet is we ain’t smart enough to do any better from here on out. Emphasize “out.”
You mean Portland’s economy is hermetically sealed from the rest of the country, impervious to and totally unaffected by what goes on in the rest of the country?
You mean Portland’s economy is hermetically sealed from the rest of the country, impervious to and totally unaffected by what goes on in the rest of the country?
So are people actually going to break their silent vow and begin using the word ‘recession’ now?
http://doctorbeatnik.wordpress.com/
So are people actually going to break their silent vow and begin using the word ‘recession’ now?
http://doctorbeatnik.wordpress.com/
So are people actually going to break their silent vow and begin using the word ‘recession’ now?
http://doctorbeatnik.wordpress.com/
So are people actually going to break their silent vow and begin using the word ‘recession’ now?
http://doctorbeatnik.wordpress.com/
Of course not. If you want to blame the GOP for the bad economy I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. But the economy in Portland is worse than much of the rest of the country and I think that is in part because of their local government, which is dominated by Democrats. Therefore, I am confused by Ken’s statement that implies the GOP is responsible for their local problems.
Of course not. If you want to blame the GOP for the bad economy I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. But the economy in Portland is worse than much of the rest of the country and I think that is in part because of their local government, which is dominated by Democrats. Therefore, I am confused by Ken’s statement that implies the GOP is responsible for their local problems.
Of course not. If you want to blame the GOP for the bad economy I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. But the economy in Portland is worse than much of the rest of the country and I think that is in part because of their local government, which is dominated by Democrats. Therefore, I am confused by Ken’s statement that implies the GOP is responsible for their local problems.
Amber, is it just me or is there another ploy at play here too? We have a huge Middle Kingdom of marketeers whose livelihoods are tied to setting price points for every essential just that moochiest bit beyond what people can really afford to pay for them: oil (spare me the market-force bullshit), wheat, milk, toilet paper, you name it. The millions without work are eating their savings if they have any, learning the meaning of despair in a corner that has walls facing them whichever way they turn, leading children to say what I haven’t heard since the depths of the thermonuclear Cold War, “IF I grow up…”
I kind have a wish for the “investor class,” which is padding its accounts with Funny Munny made out of thin air but, because it “looks like” all the other fungible bits of paper and electrons, people who actually make stuff are willing to take in exchange for real actual goods and services, not derivatives on derivatives. Since they have no more incentive to change their behavior than the Conquistadores had to stop stealing the wealth of South America, how about the Last Supper afforded Cortez’s soldiers and various and sundry other greed Spaniards: a little aperitif of molten gold?
Then, of course, there’s SHI-TIEN YEN-WANG :
The Lords of Death, the ten rulers of the underworld. They dress alike in royal robes and only the wisest can tell them apart. Each ruler presides over one court of law. In the first court a soul is judged according to his sins in life and sentenced to one of the eight courts of punishment. Punishment is fitted to the offense. Misers are made to drink molten gold, liars’ tongues are cut out. In the second court are incompetent doctors and dishonest agents; in the third, forgers, liars, gossips, and corrupt government officials; in the fifth, murderers, sex offenders and atheists; in the sixth, the sacrilegious and blasphemers; in the eighth, those guilty of filial disrespect; in the ninth, arsonists and accident victims. In the tenth is the Wheel of Transmigration where souls are released to be reincarnated again after their punishment is completed. Before souls are released, they are given a brew of oblivion, which makes them forget their former lives.
Amber, is it just me or is there another ploy at play here too? We have a huge Middle Kingdom of marketeers whose livelihoods are tied to setting price points for every essential just that moochiest bit beyond what people can really afford to pay for them: oil (spare me the market-force bullshit), wheat, milk, toilet paper, you name it. The millions without work are eating their savings if they have any, learning the meaning of despair in a corner that has walls facing them whichever way they turn, leading children to say what I haven’t heard since the depths of the thermonuclear Cold War, “IF I grow up…”
I kind have a wish for the “investor class,” which is padding its accounts with Funny Munny made out of thin air but, because it “looks like” all the other fungible bits of paper and electrons, people who actually make stuff are willing to take in exchange for real actual goods and services, not derivatives on derivatives. Since they have no more incentive to change their behavior than the Conquistadores had to stop stealing the wealth of South America, how about the Last Supper afforded Cortez’s soldiers and various and sundry other greed Spaniards: a little aperitif of molten gold?
Then, of course, there’s SHI-TIEN YEN-WANG :
The Lords of Death, the ten rulers of the underworld. They dress alike in royal robes and only the wisest can tell them apart. Each ruler presides over one court of law. In the first court a soul is judged according to his sins in life and sentenced to one of the eight courts of punishment. Punishment is fitted to the offense. Misers are made to drink molten gold, liars’ tongues are cut out. In the second court are incompetent doctors and dishonest agents; in the third, forgers, liars, gossips, and corrupt government officials; in the fifth, murderers, sex offenders and atheists; in the sixth, the sacrilegious and blasphemers; in the eighth, those guilty of filial disrespect; in the ninth, arsonists and accident victims. In the tenth is the Wheel of Transmigration where souls are released to be reincarnated again after their punishment is completed. Before souls are released, they are given a brew of oblivion, which makes them forget their former lives.
Amber, is it just me or is there another ploy at play here too? We have a huge Middle Kingdom of marketeers whose livelihoods are tied to setting price points for every essential just that moochiest bit beyond what people can really afford to pay for them: oil (spare me the market-force bullshit), wheat, milk, toilet paper, you name it. The millions without work are eating their savings if they have any, learning the meaning of despair in a corner that has walls facing them whichever way they turn, leading children to say what I haven’t heard since the depths of the thermonuclear Cold War, “IF I grow up…”
I kind have a wish for the “investor class,” which is padding its accounts with Funny Munny made out of thin air but, because it “looks like” all the other fungible bits of paper and electrons, people who actually make stuff are willing to take in exchange for real actual goods and services, not derivatives on derivatives. Since they have no more incentive to change their behavior than the Conquistadores had to stop stealing the wealth of South America, how about the Last Supper afforded Cortez’s soldiers and various and sundry other greed Spaniards: a little aperitif of molten gold?
Then, of course, there’s SHI-TIEN YEN-WANG :
The Lords of Death, the ten rulers of the underworld. They dress alike in royal robes and only the wisest can tell them apart. Each ruler presides over one court of law. In the first court a soul is judged according to his sins in life and sentenced to one of the eight courts of punishment. Punishment is fitted to the offense. Misers are made to drink molten gold, liars’ tongues are cut out. In the second court are incompetent doctors and dishonest agents; in the third, forgers, liars, gossips, and corrupt government officials; in the fifth, murderers, sex offenders and atheists; in the sixth, the sacrilegious and blasphemers; in the eighth, those guilty of filial disrespect; in the ninth, arsonists and accident victims. In the tenth is the Wheel of Transmigration where souls are released to be reincarnated again after their punishment is completed. Before souls are released, they are given a brew of oblivion, which makes them forget their former lives.
mmm… hope and change?
mmm… hope and change?
mmm… hope and change?
I think we’re living in a house of cards. If we stop buying (more so than has already occured) more people lose their jobs. People who get paid to market crap we don’t need lose their jobs. Seriously, it is a cluster f*** fractal of our own making. I’m afraid the whole mess will have to be wiped out (and the pain we’ve been feeling is but a pinprick in comparison) before we can begin re-building our economy on a “live within your means” basis (for both individuals and the nation) as well as creating an economy based on something other than consumption. Needless to say, such an economy would have to be based on moderate growth, not bubbles and on unprecedented restraint by all of those who are not being involuntarily restrained by job loss, etc. Hell, our entire national lifestyle would have to move towards one based on moderation in all things. Quite frankly, I’m beginning to wonder if we, as a nation, are up to the challenge.
I think we’re living in a house of cards. If we stop buying (more so than has already occured) more people lose their jobs. People who get paid to market crap we don’t need lose their jobs. Seriously, it is a cluster f*** fractal of our own making. I’m afraid the whole mess will have to be wiped out (and the pain we’ve been feeling is but a pinprick in comparison) before we can begin re-building our economy on a “live within your means” basis (for both individuals and the nation) as well as creating an economy based on something other than consumption. Needless to say, such an economy would have to be based on moderate growth, not bubbles and on unprecedented restraint by all of those who are not being involuntarily restrained by job loss, etc. Hell, our entire national lifestyle would have to move towards one based on moderation in all things. Quite frankly, I’m beginning to wonder if we, as a nation, are up to the challenge.
I think we’re living in a house of cards. If we stop buying (more so than has already occured) more people lose their jobs. People who get paid to market crap we don’t need lose their jobs. Seriously, it is a cluster f*** fractal of our own making. I’m afraid the whole mess will have to be wiped out (and the pain we’ve been feeling is but a pinprick in comparison) before we can begin re-building our economy on a “live within your means” basis (for both individuals and the nation) as well as creating an economy based on something other than consumption. Needless to say, such an economy would have to be based on moderate growth, not bubbles and on unprecedented restraint by all of those who are not being involuntarily restrained by job loss, etc. Hell, our entire national lifestyle would have to move towards one based on moderation in all things. Quite frankly, I’m beginning to wonder if we, as a nation, are up to the challenge.
While I agree with you that the job market is not improving I disagree with you that a Green Jobs program will serve as a catalyst to re-ignite job growth.
The root problem in the US is a lack of competitiveness in education and production compared to Third World Nations that are emerging as industrial powerhouses.
We are competing against a generation of educated workers who are literally a generation removed from poor rice farmers and willing to work harder and longer for less than what many Americans have come to expect.
The market provides jobs to those able to compete on price and quality, not on government sponsored green jobs, most of which are not efficient positive financially.
For many years the loss of our manufacturing edge was masked by the asset price boom and its predecessor, the Dot Com boom. Funny money created by inflated collateral values and spent on a standard of living beyond our means.
If our government continues its pace of outspending revenues the Japanese and Chinese will cease bankrolling our T-Bills and the only remaining buyer of our debt will be our own Treasury. The result may be inflation reminiscent of pre WW2 Germany or Banana Boat Republics. We will be decimated.
While I agree with you that the job market is not improving I disagree with you that a Green Jobs program will serve as a catalyst to re-ignite job growth.
The root problem in the US is a lack of competitiveness in education and production compared to Third World Nations that are emerging as industrial powerhouses.
We are competing against a generation of educated workers who are literally a generation removed from poor rice farmers and willing to work harder and longer for less than what many Americans have come to expect.
The market provides jobs to those able to compete on price and quality, not on government sponsored green jobs, most of which are not efficient positive financially.
For many years the loss of our manufacturing edge was masked by the asset price boom and its predecessor, the Dot Com boom. Funny money created by inflated collateral values and spent on a standard of living beyond our means.
If our government continues its pace of outspending revenues the Japanese and Chinese will cease bankrolling our T-Bills and the only remaining buyer of our debt will be our own Treasury. The result may be inflation reminiscent of pre WW2 Germany or Banana Boat Republics. We will be decimated.
While I agree with you that the job market is not improving I disagree with you that a Green Jobs program will serve as a catalyst to re-ignite job growth.
The root problem in the US is a lack of competitiveness in education and production compared to Third World Nations that are emerging as industrial powerhouses.
We are competing against a generation of educated workers who are literally a generation removed from poor rice farmers and willing to work harder and longer for less than what many Americans have come to expect.
The market provides jobs to those able to compete on price and quality, not on government sponsored green jobs, most of which are not efficient positive financially.
For many years the loss of our manufacturing edge was masked by the asset price boom and its predecessor, the Dot Com boom. Funny money created by inflated collateral values and spent on a standard of living beyond our means.
If our government continues its pace of outspending revenues the Japanese and Chinese will cease bankrolling our T-Bills and the only remaining buyer of our debt will be our own Treasury. The result may be inflation reminiscent of pre WW2 Germany or Banana Boat Republics. We will be decimated.
Hey, folks, it’s “the New Depression”, and get used to it. All this namby-pamby “we’re not in a recession” stuff is a bunch of crap…and if the rate of new unemployment slows, does that mean that there are fewer unemployed? No, it merely means that the rate of recent job loss has slowed slightly. It doesn’t mean that millions of already unemployed have suddenly found appropriate-to-their-skill-level employment.
By the time this is all over and counted, we’re going to have the most under-employed work force in the world. PhD’s pulling cappuccinos will be the least of it all.
Oh, we’re already there…
Hey, folks, it’s “the New Depression”, and get used to it. All this namby-pamby “we’re not in a recession” stuff is a bunch of crap…and if the rate of new unemployment slows, does that mean that there are fewer unemployed? No, it merely means that the rate of recent job loss has slowed slightly. It doesn’t mean that millions of already unemployed have suddenly found appropriate-to-their-skill-level employment.
By the time this is all over and counted, we’re going to have the most under-employed work force in the world. PhD’s pulling cappuccinos will be the least of it all.
Oh, we’re already there…
Hey, folks, it’s “the New Depression”, and get used to it. All this namby-pamby “we’re not in a recession” stuff is a bunch of crap…and if the rate of new unemployment slows, does that mean that there are fewer unemployed? No, it merely means that the rate of recent job loss has slowed slightly. It doesn’t mean that millions of already unemployed have suddenly found appropriate-to-their-skill-level employment.
By the time this is all over and counted, we’re going to have the most under-employed work force in the world. PhD’s pulling cappuccinos will be the least of it all.
Oh, we’re already there…
Hey, folks, it’s “the New Depression”, and get used to it. All this namby-pamby “we’re not in a recession” stuff is a bunch of crap…and if the rate of new unemployment slows, does that mean that there are fewer unemployed? No, it merely means that the rate of recent job loss has slowed slightly. It doesn’t mean that millions of already unemployed have suddenly found appropriate-to-their-skill-level employment.
By the time this is all over and counted, we’re going to have the most under-employed work force in the world. PhD’s pulling cappuccinos will be the least of it all.
Oh, we’re already there…
“Before souls are released, they are given a brew of oblivion, which makes them forget their former lives.”
So much for learning by experience.
As I said before, we’re edging into class warfare. While it wasn’t politically correct to admit that last year, this year it may be politically imperative.
I think public health care would be cheaper but they believe they’ll dodge the bullet. In fact, they may need to become adept at that. Anyone remember the kidnappings during the 30s? One wonders what form that will take. Meth production is skyrocketing, illegal pot farms, that sort of thing where more people who ordinarily wouldn’t take the risk do.
“Before souls are released, they are given a brew of oblivion, which makes them forget their former lives.”
So much for learning by experience.
As I said before, we’re edging into class warfare. While it wasn’t politically correct to admit that last year, this year it may be politically imperative.
I think public health care would be cheaper but they believe they’ll dodge the bullet. In fact, they may need to become adept at that. Anyone remember the kidnappings during the 30s? One wonders what form that will take. Meth production is skyrocketing, illegal pot farms, that sort of thing where more people who ordinarily wouldn’t take the risk do.
That’s about right. It’s kind of like ‘they’ only started admitting ‘recession’ 18 months after the fact. This is a Depression and will remain so for the forseeable future. I guess we could start a pool on when the big shots actually admit it…
That’s about right. It’s kind of like ‘they’ only started admitting ‘recession’ 18 months after the fact. This is a Depression and will remain so for the forseeable future. I guess we could start a pool on when the big shots actually admit it…
I’m afraid you are a bit short sighted. This crap didn’t start under Bush, Clinton, or any of the recent presidents. Instead it started around 1913. Then WWI started followed by the Great Depression and WWII, the voters didn’t want savers they wanted spenders, people of action. Given the ability to tax as they wanted, government has just gotten bigger since then and with it people less self governed and self responsible.
The power needs to go back to the states in order for it to go back to the people.
Frugality, responsibility, respect, and good work ethic need to make a comeback.
I’m afraid you are a bit short sighted. This crap didn’t start under Bush, Clinton, or any of the recent presidents. Instead it started around 1913. Then WWI started followed by the Great Depression and WWII, the voters didn’t want savers they wanted spenders, people of action. Given the ability to tax as they wanted, government has just gotten bigger since then and with it people less self governed and self responsible.
The power needs to go back to the states in order for it to go back to the people.
Frugality, responsibility, respect, and good work ethic need to make a comeback.
I’m afraid you are a bit short sighted. This crap didn’t start under Bush, Clinton, or any of the recent presidents. Instead it started around 1913. Then WWI started followed by the Great Depression and WWII, the voters didn’t want savers they wanted spenders, people of action. Given the ability to tax as they wanted, government has just gotten bigger since then and with it people less self governed and self responsible.
The power needs to go back to the states in order for it to go back to the people.
Frugality, responsibility, respect, and good work ethic need to make a comeback.
If you guys are right Obama will most certainly be a one term president.
You seem convinced the stimulus spending will not work. I think a lot of it has yet to kick in. I’m a little bit more optimistic. I don’t know why, but I think a lot of the stimulus money was designed to take effect a year or two down the road. Maybe so that the economy looks strong come 2012?
If you guys are right Obama will most certainly be a one term president.
You seem convinced the stimulus spending will not work. I think a lot of it has yet to kick in. I’m a little bit more optimistic. I don’t know why, but I think a lot of the stimulus money was designed to take effect a year or two down the road. Maybe so that the economy looks strong come 2012?
If you guys are right Obama will most certainly be a one term president.
You seem convinced the stimulus spending will not work. I think a lot of it has yet to kick in. I’m a little bit more optimistic. I don’t know why, but I think a lot of the stimulus money was designed to take effect a year or two down the road. Maybe so that the economy looks strong come 2012?
If you guys are right Obama will most certainly be a one term president.
You seem convinced the stimulus spending will not work. I think a lot of it has yet to kick in. I’m a little bit more optimistic. I don’t know why, but I think a lot of the stimulus money was designed to take effect a year or two down the road. Maybe so that the economy looks strong come 2012?
If there’s a frame that reads, “Right after they cash out for gold and zip outa town,” I claim that one. “So long, Suckers!”
And len, if I recall, wasn’t John Dillinger something of a folk hero for robbing the banks that were so busily and happily “Mr. Potter-”ing through the homes and farms of middle America?
Whoa! Was that a tipping point we just rolled over?
“there’s something happinin here
what it is aint exactly clear…
“i think it’s time we stop, children
what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down”
Not sure about what got Buffalo Springfield to pick that name — except maybe that the Springfield rifle was used to kill a lot of buffalo…
If there’s a frame that reads, “Right after they cash out for gold and zip outa town,” I claim that one. “So long, Suckers!”
And len, if I recall, wasn’t John Dillinger something of a folk hero for robbing the banks that were so busily and happily “Mr. Potter-”ing through the homes and farms of middle America?
Whoa! Was that a tipping point we just rolled over?
“there’s something happinin here
what it is aint exactly clear…
“i think it’s time we stop, children
what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down”
Not sure about what got Buffalo Springfield to pick that name — except maybe that the Springfield rifle was used to kill a lot of buffalo…
If there’s a frame that reads, “Right after they cash out for gold and zip outa town,” I claim that one. “So long, Suckers!”
And len, if I recall, wasn’t John Dillinger something of a folk hero for robbing the banks that were so busily and happily “Mr. Potter-”ing through the homes and farms of middle America?
Whoa! Was that a tipping point we just rolled over?
“there’s something happinin here
what it is aint exactly clear…
“i think it’s time we stop, children
what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down”
Not sure about what got Buffalo Springfield to pick that name — except maybe that the Springfield rifle was used to kill a lot of buffalo…
JTM,
“…or is there another ploy at play here too?”
Perhaps it’s appropriate to revisit Biden’s “I Have A Vision” speech from almost a year ago, here’s the link http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html.
“Not only will the next administration have to deal with foreign affairs issues, Biden warned, but also with the current economic crisis.
“Gird your loins,” Biden told the crowd. “We’re gonna win with your help, God willing, we’re gonna win, but this is not gonna be an easy ride. This president, the next president, is gonna be left with the most significant task. It’s like cleaning the Augean stables, man. This is more than just, this is more than – think about it, literally, think about it – this is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy.”
The speech (discussion) was given on Oct 20, 2008, two weeks before the general election (unemployment: Oct 08′ 6.5%, Sep 09′ @ 9.7%).
JTM,
“…or is there another ploy at play here too?”
Perhaps it’s appropriate to revisit Biden’s “I Have A Vision” speech from almost a year ago, here’s the link http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html.
“Not only will the next administration have to deal with foreign affairs issues, Biden warned, but also with the current economic crisis.
“Gird your loins,” Biden told the crowd. “We’re gonna win with your help, God willing, we’re gonna win, but this is not gonna be an easy ride. This president, the next president, is gonna be left with the most significant task. It’s like cleaning the Augean stables, man. This is more than just, this is more than – think about it, literally, think about it – this is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy.”
The speech (discussion) was given on Oct 20, 2008, two weeks before the general election (unemployment: Oct 08′ 6.5%, Sep 09′ @ 9.7%).
JTM,
“…or is there another ploy at play here too?”
Perhaps it’s appropriate to revisit Biden’s “I Have A Vision” speech from almost a year ago, here’s the link http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html.
“Not only will the next administration have to deal with foreign affairs issues, Biden warned, but also with the current economic crisis.
“Gird your loins,” Biden told the crowd. “We’re gonna win with your help, God willing, we’re gonna win, but this is not gonna be an easy ride. This president, the next president, is gonna be left with the most significant task. It’s like cleaning the Augean stables, man. This is more than just, this is more than – think about it, literally, think about it – this is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy.”
The speech (discussion) was given on Oct 20, 2008, two weeks before the general election (unemployment: Oct 08′ 6.5%, Sep 09′ @ 9.7%).
JTM,
“…or is there another ploy at play here too?”
Perhaps it’s appropriate to revisit Biden’s “I Have A Vision” speech from almost a year ago, here’s the link http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html.
“Not only will the next administration have to deal with foreign affairs issues, Biden warned, but also with the current economic crisis.
“Gird your loins,” Biden told the crowd. “We’re gonna win with your help, God willing, we’re gonna win, but this is not gonna be an easy ride. This president, the next president, is gonna be left with the most significant task. It’s like cleaning the Augean stables, man. This is more than just, this is more than – think about it, literally, think about it – this is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy.”
The speech (discussion) was given on Oct 20, 2008, two weeks before the general election (unemployment: Oct 08′ 6.5%, Sep 09′ @ 9.7%).
Buffalo Springfield is the name of a line of industrial equipment, eg, large land movers. I have one of the metal plates with the name on it.
Yeah, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, a whole raft of them. If the Wall Street bandits open soup kitchens, the end is nigh
Buffalo Springfield is the name of a line of industrial equipment, eg, large land movers. I have one of the metal plates with the name on it.
Yeah, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, a whole raft of them. If the Wall Street bandits open soup kitchens, the end is nigh
Buffalo Springfield is the name of a line of industrial equipment, eg, large land movers. I have one of the metal plates with the name on it.
Yeah, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, a whole raft of them. If the Wall Street bandits open soup kitchens, the end is nigh
Buffalo Springfield is the name of a line of industrial equipment, eg, large land movers. I have one of the metal plates with the name on it.
Yeah, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, a whole raft of them. If the Wall Street bandits open soup kitchens, the end is nigh
Steve, I don’t think it unlikely that Obama will be a one term president, but if he is, it’s also unlikely that the next guy will make it past four years unless WW III does kick in big time. The problems we face now took a lot more than four years to make, and they’ll take a lot more than four years to unmake.
The whole world economic system is undergoing massive change. The world can actually make a lot more crap than it needs with all the employable people working 40 hour weeks. Currently, the “system” is reacting to that with a major them vs. us kind of model. The very rich are getting more and more of the pie, the middle is shrinking, and the very poor are just barely making it. I think it’s probable that the workers of the world just don’t need to work 40 hours a week to keep the juggernaut going. So this may call for a redistribution of responsibilities and a redistribution of wealth. For instance, if more US workers worked 30 hours a week instead of 40…and the profits from the work were more fairly distributed…as in leveling out the increasing difference between top CEO and other executive pay and that of the hourly workers…we might have a society that came closer to a decent steady state model.
If the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class keeps on shrinking, the whole damned thing is just going to collapse upon itself.
Steve, I don’t think it unlikely that Obama will be a one term president, but if he is, it’s also unlikely that the next guy will make it past four years unless WW III does kick in big time. The problems we face now took a lot more than four years to make, and they’ll take a lot more than four years to unmake.
The whole world economic system is undergoing massive change. The world can actually make a lot more crap than it needs with all the employable people working 40 hour weeks. Currently, the “system” is reacting to that with a major them vs. us kind of model. The very rich are getting more and more of the pie, the middle is shrinking, and the very poor are just barely making it. I think it’s probable that the workers of the world just don’t need to work 40 hours a week to keep the juggernaut going. So this may call for a redistribution of responsibilities and a redistribution of wealth. For instance, if more US workers worked 30 hours a week instead of 40…and the profits from the work were more fairly distributed…as in leveling out the increasing difference between top CEO and other executive pay and that of the hourly workers…we might have a society that came closer to a decent steady state model.
If the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class keeps on shrinking, the whole damned thing is just going to collapse upon itself.
Steve, I don’t think it unlikely that Obama will be a one term president, but if he is, it’s also unlikely that the next guy will make it past four years unless WW III does kick in big time. The problems we face now took a lot more than four years to make, and they’ll take a lot more than four years to unmake.
The whole world economic system is undergoing massive change. The world can actually make a lot more crap than it needs with all the employable people working 40 hour weeks. Currently, the “system” is reacting to that with a major them vs. us kind of model. The very rich are getting more and more of the pie, the middle is shrinking, and the very poor are just barely making it. I think it’s probable that the workers of the world just don’t need to work 40 hours a week to keep the juggernaut going. So this may call for a redistribution of responsibilities and a redistribution of wealth. For instance, if more US workers worked 30 hours a week instead of 40…and the profits from the work were more fairly distributed…as in leveling out the increasing difference between top CEO and other executive pay and that of the hourly workers…we might have a society that came closer to a decent steady state model.
If the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class keeps on shrinking, the whole damned thing is just going to collapse upon itself.
Steve, I don’t think it unlikely that Obama will be a one term president, but if he is, it’s also unlikely that the next guy will make it past four years unless WW III does kick in big time. The problems we face now took a lot more than four years to make, and they’ll take a lot more than four years to unmake.
The whole world economic system is undergoing massive change. The world can actually make a lot more crap than it needs with all the employable people working 40 hour weeks. Currently, the “system” is reacting to that with a major them vs. us kind of model. The very rich are getting more and more of the pie, the middle is shrinking, and the very poor are just barely making it. I think it’s probable that the workers of the world just don’t need to work 40 hours a week to keep the juggernaut going. So this may call for a redistribution of responsibilities and a redistribution of wealth. For instance, if more US workers worked 30 hours a week instead of 40…and the profits from the work were more fairly distributed…as in leveling out the increasing difference between top CEO and other executive pay and that of the hourly workers…we might have a society that came closer to a decent steady state model.
If the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class keeps on shrinking, the whole damned thing is just going to collapse upon itself.
If Americans only knew what goes on in Washington:
1- Of 2,737 lobbyists hired to promote the interests of drug companies, insurers, hospitals, health professionals, industry groups and business organizations, 1,418 — or 52 percent — have worked for Congress, the White House or federal agencies. That includes 55 former members of Congress.
2- Lobbyists outnumber Congress (both houses combined) by over 3 to 1.
3- Commercial banks, by the end of Aug. ’09, contributed almost $2M to House members and almost $600K to the Senate.
4- Excluding Presidential candidates, the health care sector contributed over $12M to Senate members last year.
5- A large percentage of Senators are multi-millionaires even though their salaries are around $200K. (I suspect most became millionaires while in office!)
6- A Congress member’s personal PAC remains largely unregulated so the funds can be used for any purpose to which the Congress person wishes: golf at expensive resorts, private planes, trips around the world, etc. In addition, contributions to those PACs remain largely unrecorded.
7- In spite of numerous complaints of mortgage fraud by independent mortgage companies and bank affiliates (i.e. Household Finance-HSBC, Wells Fargo Financial-Well Fargo Bank) dating back to 2000, the Fed refused to investigate the subprime practices until July 2007.
8- As a result of Financial industry lobbying, the proposed Consumer Protection Agency will probably be defeated and new industry regulations will be severely watered down, leading some to believe that another financial meltdown will probably occur in the future.
Need more stats to prove that Congress is not only out of touch with the American people but have chosen to look after themselves and their friends and benefactors before the people?
Sources: Business Week, 9/21/09 issue; Washington Post, 9/27/09 issue; Open Secrets
If Americans only knew what goes on in Washington:
1- Of 2,737 lobbyists hired to promote the interests of drug companies, insurers, hospitals, health professionals, industry groups and business organizations, 1,418 — or 52 percent — have worked for Congress, the White House or federal agencies. That includes 55 former members of Congress.
2- Lobbyists outnumber Congress (both houses combined) by over 3 to 1.
3- Commercial banks, by the end of Aug. ’09, contributed almost $2M to House members and almost $600K to the Senate.
4- Excluding Presidential candidates, the health care sector contributed over $12M to Senate members last year.
5- A large percentage of Senators are multi-millionaires even though their salaries are around $200K. (I suspect most became millionaires while in office!)
6- A Congress member’s personal PAC remains largely unregulated so the funds can be used for any purpose to which the Congress person wishes: golf at expensive resorts, private planes, trips around the world, etc. In addition, contributions to those PACs remain largely unrecorded.
7- In spite of numerous complaints of mortgage fraud by independent mortgage companies and bank affiliates (i.e. Household Finance-HSBC, Wells Fargo Financial-Well Fargo Bank) dating back to 2000, the Fed refused to investigate the subprime practices until July 2007.
8- As a result of Financial industry lobbying, the proposed Consumer Protection Agency will probably be defeated and new industry regulations will be severely watered down, leading some to believe that another financial meltdown will probably occur in the future.
Need more stats to prove that Congress is not only out of touch with the American people but have chosen to look after themselves and their friends and benefactors before the people?
Sources: Business Week, 9/21/09 issue; Washington Post, 9/27/09 issue; Open Secrets
If Americans only knew what goes on in Washington:
1- Of 2,737 lobbyists hired to promote the interests of drug companies, insurers, hospitals, health professionals, industry groups and business organizations, 1,418 — or 52 percent — have worked for Congress, the White House or federal agencies. That includes 55 former members of Congress.
2- Lobbyists outnumber Congress (both houses combined) by over 3 to 1.
3- Commercial banks, by the end of Aug. ’09, contributed almost $2M to House members and almost $600K to the Senate.
4- Excluding Presidential candidates, the health care sector contributed over $12M to Senate members last year.
5- A large percentage of Senators are multi-millionaires even though their salaries are around $200K. (I suspect most became millionaires while in office!)
6- A Congress member’s personal PAC remains largely unregulated so the funds can be used for any purpose to which the Congress person wishes: golf at expensive resorts, private planes, trips around the world, etc. In addition, contributions to those PACs remain largely unrecorded.
7- In spite of numerous complaints of mortgage fraud by independent mortgage companies and bank affiliates (i.e. Household Finance-HSBC, Wells Fargo Financial-Well Fargo Bank) dating back to 2000, the Fed refused to investigate the subprime practices until July 2007.
8- As a result of Financial industry lobbying, the proposed Consumer Protection Agency will probably be defeated and new industry regulations will be severely watered down, leading some to believe that another financial meltdown will probably occur in the future.
Need more stats to prove that Congress is not only out of touch with the American people but have chosen to look after themselves and their friends and benefactors before the people?
Sources: Business Week, 9/21/09 issue; Washington Post, 9/27/09 issue; Open Secrets
Just wait a few months, when the Supremes rule that there can be no restrictions of any kind on political “contributions” made by corporations.
The game is already over, but at that point, the other team will actually be driven off the field by zambonis sporting enormous loudspeakers.
Just wait a few months, when the Supremes rule that there can be no restrictions of any kind on political “contributions” made by corporations.
The game is already over, but at that point, the other team will actually be driven off the field by zambonis sporting enormous loudspeakers.
Just wait a few months, when the Supremes rule that there can be no restrictions of any kind on political “contributions” made by corporations.
The game is already over, but at that point, the other team will actually be driven off the field by zambonis sporting enormous loudspeakers.
This is the same crap I used to hear at the barber shop when I was little — almost 40 years ago. The current recession is the new normal; start stocking the bunker, yada yada.
To paraphrase: The economy has a ten-year cycle and a five-year memory.
This is the same crap I used to hear at the barber shop when I was little — almost 40 years ago. The current recession is the new normal; start stocking the bunker, yada yada.
To paraphrase: The economy has a ten-year cycle and a five-year memory.
This is the same crap I used to hear at the barber shop when I was little — almost 40 years ago. The current recession is the new normal; start stocking the bunker, yada yada.
To paraphrase: The economy has a ten-year cycle and a five-year memory.
This is the same crap I used to hear at the barber shop when I was little — almost 40 years ago. The current recession is the new normal; start stocking the bunker, yada yada.
To paraphrase: The economy has a ten-year cycle and a five-year memory.
Good call, Dan!
Good call, Dan!
Good call, Dan!
The U.S really needs law passed to ram home the fact that Corporations are not poeple and do not share their Constitutional rights and stop the body of precedent that makes it appear so.
It is a dangerous folly to allow non-human entities to claim such protections.
It leads to the diffusion of responsbility otherwise attributable to the protected person that gives corporations rights without responsibilities or accountability to the detriment of all others.
The U.S really needs law passed to ram home the fact that Corporations are not poeple and do not share their Constitutional rights and stop the body of precedent that makes it appear so.
It is a dangerous folly to allow non-human entities to claim such protections.
It leads to the diffusion of responsbility otherwise attributable to the protected person that gives corporations rights without responsibilities or accountability to the detriment of all others.
The U.S really needs law passed to ram home the fact that Corporations are not poeple and do not share their Constitutional rights and stop the body of precedent that makes it appear so.
It is a dangerous folly to allow non-human entities to claim such protections.
It leads to the diffusion of responsbility otherwise attributable to the protected person that gives corporations rights without responsibilities or accountability to the detriment of all others.
The U.S really needs law passed to ram home the fact that Corporations are not poeple and do not share their Constitutional rights and stop the body of precedent that makes it appear so.
It is a dangerous folly to allow non-human entities to claim such protections.
It leads to the diffusion of responsbility otherwise attributable to the protected person that gives corporations rights without responsibilities or accountability to the detriment of all others.
Fentex,
I haven’t studied such things since approximately the Age of Pericles, but in my day the jurisprudential line was that, in order for “fictitious legal entities” to exist at all, on the strength of the pooled resources of shareholders, it was necessary to absolve shareholders of their liability for any civil malfeasance on the part of the entity. The argument went, that such massive projects as the transcontinental railroad could not have been possible were every investor to share liability in turn.
I’ve no idea what’s become of this body of law in the meantime, though I have a gut feeling that you’re right at least insofar as a compromise position should be (and probably has been) struck by pragmatic jurists. Abraham Lincoln, “The Rail Candidate” of 1860, was one of the very first corporate attorneys, and no one in his subsequent cabinet–and scarcely anyone in his party–did not hold stock in railroad corporations.
Certainly I agree that American corporations, including media corporations, constantly subvert our laws for selfish gain, but to the extent that a corporation is reposed in a broad base of stock investors, its selfishness is limited. That was Lincoln’s argument, anyway. And he made good money in making that argument.
Fentex,
I haven’t studied such things since approximately the Age of Pericles, but in my day the jurisprudential line was that, in order for “fictitious legal entities” to exist at all, on the strength of the pooled resources of shareholders, it was necessary to absolve shareholders of their liability for any civil malfeasance on the part of the entity. The argument went, that such massive projects as the transcontinental railroad could not have been possible were every investor to share liability in turn.
I’ve no idea what’s become of this body of law in the meantime, though I have a gut feeling that you’re right at least insofar as a compromise position should be (and probably has been) struck by pragmatic jurists. Abraham Lincoln, “The Rail Candidate” of 1860, was one of the very first corporate attorneys, and no one in his subsequent cabinet–and scarcely anyone in his party–did not hold stock in railroad corporations.
Certainly I agree that American corporations, including media corporations, constantly subvert our laws for selfish gain, but to the extent that a corporation is reposed in a broad base of stock investors, its selfishness is limited. That was Lincoln’s argument, anyway. And he made good money in making that argument.
Our “capitalists” are dealing with some of this: Fewer employees being expected to do more and more work in less and less hours for flat or declining pay. It’s called “productivity gain,” and its monetized value goes pretty much straight into pockets that are fat already.
I used to work in a medium national retail chain store, where the motif went from ‘great customer service and a great place to work” to “fleece the rubes, trade off the company’s former good name for as long as possible, manage by intimidation, more work for less pay in an environment of incrementally impossible demands and expectations.” Be afraid, be very afraid…
Good idea. Good luck.
“broad base of stock investors” limiting selfishness? Say what? How many things wrong with that notion? Or did you have tongue planted firmly in cheek?
I can never tell with Hugo.
But then I’m usually uncertain about myself.
If I may be permitted an overly simplistic observation.
I’m a simple truck driver, owner operator. I get around the country on a monthly basis.
What I’m hearing lately from the small business owners I deal with, is that everybody is holding their breath. Some of these people are ready to move ahead with growing their operations, my broker in Vancouver Washington among them.
The problem is that, it’s impossible to tell what the rules are going to be in the near future.
With health care, cap and trade, and taxes so uncertain. A small business can’t take the chance on hiring, having no idea what their cost for that employee, new building, or truck is going to be next year.
I have a per mile contract, that includes a fuel cost sur-charge, and we will be rolling the effects of “Cap&Trade” into the per mile charge. But you have to know that every penny of that charge will end up on the store shelve.
In the short term. No one is spending the $130,000 plus for a new truck until we know what the regulations for that truck are going to be, and how much it’s going to cost to operate it.
I suspect that this sort of “holding back” is going on worldwide in business, and wont get better until the government sets some lasting rules.
@JTM,
As usual, I was just reciting from a past not judged here.
@Dan,
I’m all for the rule of law too, and I agree with you that such is the best sauce reduction.
@Jon,
Got no qualms with your diagnosis of FDR’s predicament in the 1930s, nor with your prescription for us now. Sounds good.
(I’d note that the unemployment figures for 1937 were as dire as those for 1933, but by the later date Long was dead and FDR, as you so nicely put it, had succeeded in “threading the needle” viz such as Fr. Coughlin, who was soon to discredit himself. FDR’s “threading” consisted of what, in more recent days, we’d call “triangulation”; so, for example, FDR’s trumping of Long’s drive for rural electrification. In the interim ’33-’37, the federal efforts vastly exceeded those of the WPA, but then you know that, and the point remains the same.)
The hatred between social groups will definitely increase until things finally turn around five or ten years from now. It is natural for those who have not, to dislike those who are still fortunate enough to have. Until the number of unemployed individuals decreases to a more normal level, we will all have to deal with the spin off of crime and hatred that higher poverty levels tend to spawn. There are many fine citizens out there right now who have no way to feed their families and they would not hesitate for a second to steal the brass monkey from your porch and sell it to feed their children. So until the businesses of America loose the need for greed and start to hire more people again, we will all experience some of the roughest times of our lives. Now buckle up and batten down the hatches, because things have just begun.
Bankruptnooption.wordpress.com
If you want jobs, stop buying cheap Chinese junk every time you step up to the cash register. It’s all broken before you get home anyway.
Apparently, Justice Sotomayor brought up this idea during the hearing. I’ve not looked up the details yet, but apparently the whole concept of corporations as a person was the entry of a person who was taking notes a hundred years ago and somehow those notes became precedent.
Wow, are you overshooting my intent Steve. My question is what steps the GOP would be willing to take to appeal to out of work 20 to 30 year olds. The ones I know would kill for a CCC option at this point, and there is no way in hell the current suddenly-fiscally-responsible right side of the isle would support that.
I will admit that I’m not at all sure that the kids I know are representative. I am sure that they and their friends hold the GOP and “Rich Republicans” more responsible for their plight then you could imagine Steve. Whether they will get off their hipster asses and become politically motivated is another issue.
As for Dems being responsible for Portland’s dearth of jobs, that’s an interesting take, but doesn’t really capture Oregon as accurately as you assume. Oregon has long been captive to anti tax and corporate tax break Republicans, and Dems have only small control over the states economics. The “give every concession to the corporations to assure growth” crowd was more Chamber and Dick Army oriented than Dem and locals in the 20 to 30 year old demographic are seeing the failure of that notion and not exactly impressed with the notion that tax cuts for the rich as the way out for them.
I think the thing that is unique here is that the localized depressions of the rust belt, inner city, Appalachia (to name a few) are now spreading to age demographics and hitting them hard. Harder in fact than the general figures for the great depression. There always those who argue that history is cyclical and we will come out the other end, but something is shaping this particular recession in ways that are going to make it unique and therefore very unpredictable.
Class warfare, as Len says, is likely. When you piss off your young just starting to grab for independence you get the warlord patterns in the inner city, but what do you get among the more affluent majority who had some implicit contract to inherit at least what the boomers laid claim to?
I’m not sure too many of the regulars on this blog are able to sense the building frustration of the 18 to 3o year old cohort except through our children enough to imagine their responses. Will they take to the streets as in the 70s? Or will they just move home to try to survive. I do think they will become politically activated by poverty (which is where a large portion are finding themselves) and I don’t think we are able to wrap our heads around that yet.
in Lincolns time it was wrell understood that corporations were not people and that they were governed solely by the laws written for them – and no thought for a moment they could claim protections based on the constitutionally protected rights of an actual person.
As Valerie mentioned the beginnings of case law offering such protection in the U.S was this case (where a court reporters summary invented the concept).
The second derivative on the unempolument rate seems to be going negative ever so slightly in your chart. It still points to an “offfical” ten percent next year and God only knows what in the real indices.
With the NSA’s blanket communication interception powers, posse comitatus a relic of the past, available mercenaries in the houndreds of thousands and right-wing , citizen militias, I don’t see leftists or progressives standing a chance. Not to mention the sleeping dog of the media.
So in this environment, exactly how do you conduct class warfare? It’s a serious question. Democracy wass supposed to provide a chacks and balances but all three branches plus the fourth estate are now wholly owned subsidiaries of the corporatocracy.
How do the mice slay the dragons? It can be done non-violently but strikes and boycotts are the only tools that come to mind – in addition to 60s and 70s size marches on DC.
Thoughts?
Thoughts? As an employer, I have employees who can barely cover their student loans on what I’m barely able to pay them. Some made bad choices…changing majors, changing careers, yet still racking up student loans. But they at their ages…20 to 30…are in substantially worse shape than I was at their age…and I was way off on an alternative direction as a musician and guitar maker.
They’re fucked. Simple as that. And they’re the employed ones!
I think if the economy gets as bad as some people here are forecasting all the GOP will need to do is make some vague claims about “hope” and “change” to appeal to the underemployed.
I didn’t really mean to say that the Dems are to blame for the high unemployment in Portland. There is plenty of blame to go around for both parties.
wow! it is impressing… and pity… this world crisis influenced everything. and of course people were the first who suffered from it – almost all of them lost their jobs and had to look for new ones…
In the meantime, the Green Meanies that brought you the present Invitation to Collapse are sniggering their ways up and down the Rodeo Drives of the world, with their private security and private islands and all that. What you get when there’s no consequences, and no homeostatic, negative-feedback functions left.
What did the bumper sticker advise? “Eat the rich”?
Now for something altogether different:
1930 — US farm population 30.5 million (facing the Dust Bowl, of course, due to unwise farming practices and a surprise drought), 21% of labor force, US population of 123 million, 6.3 million farms, average acreage 157.
1990 — US farm population 3.0 million (facing urban exodus? Survivalists had the right idea a couple of generations too early?), 2.6% of labor force, US population of 261.4 million, 2.1 million farms, average acreage 465.
Current farming practices hugely dependent on “soil enhancement” with petrochemicals and other additives, acreage dependent on irrigation up from 14 million in 1930 to 49.4 million in 1992.
1998 — number of farms up slightly, also average acreage down slightly, 1990 census shows some increase in populations of rural counties for the first time in a long time. And what does any of this mean? “Forty acres and a mule…”
And maybe some of you-all remember a Hippie-dippy worry from a couple of generations ago, which like all the others that really count, come onto us one little decision and action at a time, kind of like termites eating the front porch joists and decking until Auntie Em cracks through and gets a compound tib-fib fracture to go with the artificial hip she can’t pay for. Farming doesn’t work if you ain’t got no topsoil, and like with so many other depletables, the greedy of today are killing the future for a Hummer and a top-deck suite on the World Ship.
And Warstler’s whining, more-intelligent-than-us Boomerangers now come “home” to claim THEIR “entitlement.” Class war, age set war, political-persuasion war, unpaid-soldiers-turned-mercenaries war, water-rich versus water-poor war, rural-self-dependents –versus-urban-locusts war… I need more ammo, and I always did want to get me a set of Mad Max leathers and a dune buggy that runs on methane from rotting shit and sports a .50-cal on a swivel mount. Not enough hair left to grow a meaningful Mohawk, darn it…
What a wonderful time to be alive, if you are a woeful prophet of inevitable futility, like me.
Hope this can Change, hope I’m way wrong, but — Told you so!
“viz such as Fr. Coughlin, who was soon to discredit himself”
I think the scariest thing going on today, maybe, is that it’s no longer possible for some people to discredit themselves. Palin abruptly quits office and The Base convinces itself that this is a bold and courageous blow for freedom. Beck says that Obama “hates white people” and The Base erects a Golden Calf in his honor. The Republicans offer up an almost-daily instance of a Family Values God-Man who has been caught plowing Philistine fields and The Base continues to snarl about the sexual immorality of godless fascist socialist liberals.
My motto used to be, “The billionaires won.” That still holds, but I think my new motto is, “You have to be kidding me.”
Humor is not that serious. Despair is.
The Legend of Rip Van Freaker
I was riding home from Woodstock
Tokin’ on a spliff
When my psychedelic hippie van
Went flying over a cliff
Maybe it was the hand of God
That bent time in a wrinkle
I’d slept like a dog for forty years
A modern Rip Van Winkle
So I hitched a ride to the nearest town
To see what I had missed
And oh man what a bummer
2009 is this:
TV is a picture hanging on the wall
Women dress like men
But the men don’t care at all
Underwear is advertised
Where everyone can see
Gasoline is expensive
But pornography is free
Milk will give you cancer
Water is a snack
The cars are made of plastic
The president is black
The Chinese are our bankers
Ho Chi Minh’s our friend
And Arlo Guthrie’s a Republican
The criminals go on talking tours
While preachers go to jail
They’ll take your right to own a gun
But ammo’s still for sale
A hunter needs a license
But an animal can sue
With the whole world turning upside down
What’s a freakin man to do
The hippie thing is all messed up
A long hair just can’t win
And Arlo Guthrie’s a Republican
The Russians fly our astronauts
To an international station
While the United States of America
Becomes a third world nation
Good men just can’t find a job
While bad ones still get rich
Some things keep on keepin on
And Brother, that’s a bitch
Designer drugs are legal
But reefer’s still a sin
And Arlo Guthrie is a Republican
@Dan,
Not to be too agreeable, but I couldn’t be more in agreement with your observation that “the scariest thing going on today, maybe, is that it’s no longer possible for some people to discredit themselves.” Indeed, it’s no longer possible even for entire news organizations, political parties, financial and educational institutions to discredit themselves. I suppose I have my favorite examples and presumably you have yours, but this development is identifiable and disturbing in general, and not just in its particulars.
@len,
I was wondering whether you’d pick up on T Bone’s reference to his favorite Republican! As Gen. Lafayette and I are wont to say, “De gustibus non disputandum.” The Frenchman saw that old saying as a kind of byword for a freewheeling America that thrilled him.
Your lyrics are cool.
http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/107831/5-most-overpaid-ceos.html?mod=career-leadership
If you want job creation, you need a stable environment for business investment and expansion. If you want that, you need a stable regime. Right now, just as in the 1930s though to a much lesser extent, we have regime uncertainty.
Obama should announce the following:
#1. say that Cap-and-trade is off the table. Kill it dead.
#2. Break up the “too big to fail” banks and force the bond holders to take the losses. Our financial system is clogged with zombies. Fixing this MUST be the focus of our government so that savings can be translated into investment and job creation.
#3. Make the current tax rates permanent.
#4. Eliminate the corporate tax altogether. Corporate taxes are simply a cost passed on to consumers. Nothing more.
#5. With this new tax situation in place, cut government spending to balance the budget.
#6. Reduce healthcare reform to being exclusively a Medicare/Medicaid reform plan for proving their ability to eliminate waste and fraud there. Eliminate the tax break for employer insurance.
#7. Redact the tire tariff and repeal the stimulus plan along with its “buy american” provision.
#8. Role back the minimum wage hike, which is responsible for a major spike in teenage unemployment and thus a potential powder-keg of civil unrest.
That’s all I can think of off the top of my head.
Public works as a weapon against civil unrest may not be a completely worthless idea, but so far the record on using them as a road to recovery is garbage. It didn’t work in the depression or in Japan.
Provide a simple, minimal but humane safety net and lift the uncertainty and complexity from our system. That’s change I can support.
Thanks Hugo. Actually, I knew about that. Arlo told us on his web site a few months ago and generated a long series of replies. My suspicion is the kid is still the kid. If he’d gone totally alien I don’t think T-Bone would rate him a fave.
I don’t care what party anyone joins as long as they agree with me.
‘Fraid I, at least, don’t see any keepers on this stringer, other than crushing the Big Banks and, horror of horrors, breaching on social grounds those otherwise inviolable loan contracts. And maybe blowing off the Unsurance “industry” in favor of universal Medicare.
Don’t like corporate tax? Just a tax on consumption? Isn’t consumption what has gotten us into the present mess, along with all the externalities that these corporate persons and shareholders pursuing their own interests in the inevitable situation where lack of consequences begets unbridled greed? Who negotiates, let alone enforces, the social contract? or is that just a myth, to the libertarian?
How about public works as a necessity in the present circumstance to repair the infrastructure that decades of greed-driven, live-off-the-externalities self-interest have brought us? Not doctrinally pure, but there have to be a bunch of “displaced” civil engineers who would be happy to build and re-build bridges and roadways, and certainly lots of strong backs attached to over-educated minds that could pick up cigarette butts and other trash and maybe learn a little respect for the landscape that way.
Or maybe we humans have locked ourselves into a positive-feedback loop that like what happens with PA systems eventually blows out the speakers.
And for maybe 60 million Americans, just where is the money for that simple but minimal humane safety net going to come from, and the generous souls with pure hearts to administer the removing of unceertaintly and complexity from our system?
My money would be on the much more likely and probably very profitable appearance of chain suicide parlors, where you could at least be assured that your little bit of residual wealth will buy you a painless death, maybe after a romp with some sex workers and some good dope.
The facts, they are at odds with you.
“This crap” dates to the Industrial Revolution.
It’s not that the voters wanted “spenders” in the Great Depression, it’s that they wanted someone who would try something different from what Hoover tried. (And we now know enough about what Hoover tried to know that it was exactly the wrong thing to do under the circumstances. We also know that when FDR headed briefly Hooverward in 1937 under more or less the same circumstances, the economy, unsurprisingly in hindsight, re-tanked.)
Government has not “just gotten bigger” since then; during the Clinton years civilian federal employment actually FELL to its lowest level since the Kennedy administration.
Sure, people have gotten less responsible. So have corporations, on a much huger scale, because the largest among them have known that government would never allow them to fail. What no one seems to get is that “too big to fail” is too big, period, and that we have a perfectly fine mechanism for addressing this problem if we’ll only use it instead of getting the vapors and screaming “Aiiieee! Socialism!”
And there’s no particularly compelling reason why state governments, in general, are any better at handling problems than the feds are. Actually, you can point to states from Massachusetts to California (particularly the latter) to find evidence that they aren’t.
And I’m all for frugality, responsibility, respect and a good work ethic. But I ask you: Whose lack of those things does the most damage? The answer is more complicated than you think.
Rhyming sin with Republican, is like rhyming skull with capitol.
Well then, HStV, you got a better one? Living, that is. I’ll take AL or TR if we got to cover all time.
VC,
I think this really speaks to the core of the issue. And in this case, the ‘class war’ is really a visceral reaction to the growth of a straight kleptocracy.
Here’s Matt Taibbi on naked short-selling, and the cringe-inducing efforts by lobbiest from Goldman Sachs who are busy promoting the (unregulated) practice among Senators.
The truly horrific aspect is that Goldman Sachs would probably not exist today were it not for the totally uncritical stance of the Feds with regard to the $13 billion in counter party claims paid to them by AIG using taxpayer dollars.
Granted, their collapse may well have precipitated a global financial implosion, making today’s grim reality seem like a godsend. But assuming that paying off the hostage takers was, in fact, the best choice is a bad set of options, it makes no sense to then regard them as heroic saviors who should be subsequently entertained at the highest levels of government.
Quite the contrary – the moment the crisis passed, they should have become the recipients of a surgical castration that would leave them neutered for good.
But due to the defining silence from the White House (to say nothing of the DoJ, the SEC, the Treasury, and any other executive branch that employs auditors with badges and guns), these guys are back in the District, insisting that less oversight is called for, and lavishly funding the re-election campaigns of any Senators who can be persuaded to agree.
Sure, this has some of their more idealistic staffers reaching for the Ambien, but that’s not the same as having actual Senators expressing public contempt – backed up with commensurate legal censure and liberation of now-captured regulatory agencies.
Looked at from another angle, this has little to do with traditional definitions of social class, and everything to do with flat-out corruption.
My own feeling is that the expression “class war” actually masks the true nature of the problem. After all, social classes tend to be pretty settled things. Even when individuals move between them, the lines themselves are more or less fixed, as are the defining factors (e.g. employment, education, aesthetics, etc.) But what we’re seeing here is entirely new, in that what’s emerging has all the hallmarks of a pure kleptocracy.
Of course, being a taker of this kind has become a factor in many class systems, but not (typically) in liberal democracies. Rather, the simple existence of a klepto-class has been a defining characteristic of petro states and third-world nations. Here, ‘war’ is more like the healthy reaction to an unwelcome invader who is upsetting the established order of things. More specifically, the anger it involves is like the reaction to high-level treason.
It’s important to realize that the power of K St. does not lie in money alone. Instead, it stems from the fact that certain things which should never be sold are routinely delivered to the highest bidder. You can even argue that smart companies must buy favorable legislation on the assumption that a refusal to do so becomes a decisive advantage for less scrupulous competitors.
The basic availability of checkbook legislation forms the core of social and moral hazard in America. It’s very existence is an assault on constitutional rule of law. It’s current state is a product of a specific choice made by Congress to pit one set of constituents (voters) against another (camping funders), in order to play both sides against each other while Rome burns around them.
Today, we have ‘law’ makers who create the illusion of governance while selling the very thing that is undermining the legitimacy of government completely.
I’m beginning to think that the breathtaking pass given to the ratings agencies stems from that fact that no other organization involved in the econopocalypse had closer parallels to the role played by Congress in the life of the nation. Since these agencies faced (and succumbed to) the exact same conflict of interest that has completely warped our legislative process, it’s no wonder that a systematic evaluation of its catastrophic consequence is the last thing legislators on either side of the aisle want to publicize.
Instead, we are still governed by sub-prime law masquerading as AAA Democracy.
As long as Washington remains a friendly place for those who elect to take instead of earn, the vast majority of people in this country are going to go on getting shafted in every way imaginable.
Ironically, this is the basic argument used by conservatives who oppose socialism. Only now, it’s not the poor who are taking from the middle and the rich. It’s the rich taking from the middle, leaving everyone feeling poor.
If Conservatives are as opposed to redistribution as they say they are, then they should be the first to demand the revocation of the GS corporate charter, on the grounds that no one has done more to violate their so called ‘principles’ than the bank that owes its very existence to Federal intervention, while accruing what could be the largest bonus pool in history.
Their argument, by the way, is that “we need to keep our bankers happy.” That’s not a sentiment you’d see from a man who truly fears the representatives of people he’s just shafted with extreme prejudice.
Or their President, for that matter.
Here’s the same comment, with fixed tags – Jon, any chance you could delete the less-readable original?
VC,
I think this really speaks to the core of the issue. And in this case, the ‘class war’ is really a visceral reaction to the growth of a straight kleptocracy.
Here’s Matt Taibbi on naked short-selling, and the cringe-inducing efforts by lobbyist from Goldman Sachs who are busy promoting the (unregulated) practice among Senators.
The truly horrific aspect is that Goldman Sachs would probably not exist today were it not for the totally uncritical stance of the Feds with regard to the $13 billion in counter party claims paid to them by AIG using taxpayer dollars.
Granted, their collapse may well have precipitated a global financial implosion, making today’s grim reality seem like a godsend. But assuming that paying off the hostage takers was, in fact, the best choice is a bad set of options, it makes no sense to then regard them as heroic saviors who should be subsequently entertained at the highest levels of government.
Quite the contrary – the moment the crisis passed, they should have become the recipients of a surgical castration that would leave them neutered for good.
But due to the defining silence from the White House (to say nothing of the DoJ, the SEC, the Treasury, and any other executive branch that employs auditors with badges and guns), these guys are back in the District, insisting that less oversight is called for, and lavishly funding the re-election campaigns of any Senators who can be persuaded to agree.
Sure, this has some of their more idealistic staffers reaching for the Ambien, but that’s not the same as having actual Senators expressing public contempt – backed up with commensurate legal censure and liberation of now-captured regulatory agencies.
Looked at from another angle, this has little to do with traditional definitions of social class, and everything to do with flat-out corruption.
My own feeling is that the expression “class war” actually masks the true nature of the problem. After all, social classes tend to be pretty settled things. Even when individuals move between them, the lines themselves are more or less fixed, as are the defining factors (e.g. employment, education, aesthetics, etc.) But what we’re seeing here is entirely new, in that what’s emerging has all the hallmarks of a pure kleptocracy.
Of course, being a taker of this kind has become a factor in many class systems, but not (typically) in liberal democracies. Rather, the simple existence of a klepto-class has been a defining characteristic of petro states and third-world nations. Here, ‘war’ is more like the healthy reaction to an unwelcome invader who is upsetting the established order of things. More specifically, the anger it involves is like the reaction to high-level treason.
It’s important to realize that the power of K St. does not lie in money alone. Instead, it stems from the fact that certain things which should never be sold are routinely delivered to the highest bidder. You can even argue that smart companies must buy favorable legislation on the assumption that a refusal to do so becomes a decisive advantage for less scrupulous competitors.
The basic availability of checkbook legislation forms the core of social and moral hazard in America. It’s very existence is an assault on constitutional rule of law. It’s current state is a product of a specific choice made by Congress to pit one set of constituents (voters) against another (camping funders), in order to play both sides against each other while Rome burns around them.
Today, we have ‘law’ makers who create the illusion of governance while selling the very thing that is undermining the legitimacy of government completely.
I’m beginning to think that the breathtaking pass given to the ratings agencies stems from that fact that no other organization involved in the econopocalypse had closer parallels to the role played by Congress in the life of the nation. Since these agencies faced (and succumbed to) the exact same conflict of interest that has completely warped our legislative process, it’s no wonder that a systematic evaluation of its catastrophic consequence is the last thing legislators on either side of the aisle want to publicize.
Instead, we are still governed by sub-prime law masquerading as AAA Democracy.
As long as Washington remains a friendly place for those who elect to take instead of earn, the vast majority of people in this country are going to go on getting shafted in every way imaginable.
Ironically, this is the basic argument used by conservatives who oppose socialism. Only now, it’s not the poor who are taking from the middle and the rich. It’s the rich taking from the middle, leaving everyone feeling poor.
If Conservatives are as opposed to income redistribution as they say they are, then they should be the first to demand the revocation of the GS corporate charter, on the grounds that no one has done more to violate their so called ‘principles’ than the bank that owes its very existence to Federal intervention, while accruing what could be the largest bonus pool in history.
Their argument, by the way, is that “we need to keep our bankers happy.” That’s not a sentiment you’d see from a man who truly fears the representatives of people he’s just shafted with extreme prejudice.
Or their President, for that matter.
Wit mah accint, it’s parfek.
It’s all in the delivery.
T Bone,
No, I certainly haven’t got a better byword. Mine own, entirely inferior, motto is: “It’s over. Let’s go!” (Doesn’t work in Latin, nor even in French, but I suppose you could emblazon it on a kind of coat of arms, provided the heraldry were done in psychedelic manner a la Filmore West 1967; so, no quadrants, just mercurial amalgams or emulsions &tc., with maybe some wings attached to the escutcheon.)
I’m guessing that Lafayette would have loved that, when pressed, Frost averred that the single ugliest word in the American language is “ex…clu…sion”.
You’ll probably recall that Robert
Oops. Excuse the aborted phrase attached supra. Not exactly a goatee, but perhaps a young Imperial.
@Fentex & JTM,
Who should take the rap for corporate malfeasance? The officers? The company itself (see the huge judgment recently rendered against Pfizer)? The shareholders themselves? Some combination of these, or all of the above?
Nobody here wants absolution, but where to the penalties end, and where is our justice system letting down its guard? Jon seems to be saying that the financial industry, especially, is so far ahead of the regulators that the latter can at best only nip at the heels of the fleeing culprits. Chris Cox is an honest and capable guy, yet he let a lot of mayhem happen on his watch. Haven’t we got a structural problem here?
What, then, should be the structure?
Hugo, you’ll love this I think. On the topic of the machines taking over our culture a little too soon:
She who broke my heart at 18 and went on to become a State Department diplomat is now studying for ordination as an Episcopal minister (go figure). Having completed her tests and well on her way to ordination today, I sent her a note. Proud of her Greek studies, I had Babelfish translate:
“Congratulations! May God find you, guide you and enfold you in infinite love.”
Her Greek not quite being up to it, she went to Babelfish and it returned:
“Congratulating! The May God finds you, guides you and enfolds you in inexperienced love.”
And now we know why the droids will have to keep us around for at least one more generation.
> #1. say that Cap-and-trade is off the table.
> Kill it dead.
Cap and trade is the U.S plan to provide incentives to reduce carbon emissions, is it not?
I’m curious – does the suggestion reflect a disagreement that anything should be done? I notice no following policy to replace it.
> #4. Eliminate the corporate tax altogether.
I presume you realise this would involve considerable more than just the simple repeal of a tax, and consider ancillary regulations to be part of the proposal.
Asset holders (and likely upper echelon management) in corporations would simply live within entire structures of untaxed corporate ecologies rather than spend any of their own wealth if it were possible.
I would think a nice libetarian approach would be switch to a consumption tax, deny the federal government the right to tax directly and fund it by contributions from States (as a proportion of total state taxation).
Thus creating a market for (simpified) competing tax regimes across the country. Find out where people really want to live.
Hugo, I hope you are not going in the direction of “liability for The Present Horror is so disseminated and dispersed that nobody and everybody is liable.” That would just be bullshit.
As to how the cuts are made, our criminal laws are based on the notion of mens rea, that “evil mind,” including culpable negligence which measures against a “reasonable person’s” perceptions and behavior. Madoff is a laydown dead duck as a principal in his “business.” Ken Lay and Charles Keating and probably most of the folks at Goldman and Lehman who have anything to do with derivatives and the scumsuckers in the rating agencies would likely be also. The people who run the corporate offices of any number of “businesses” that feed off the public, especially ones that have pulled the “privatization” scam, ought to qualify. A lot of regulators, like the guys from the SEC mentioned in an earlier post who hit Madoff up for jobs while supposedly “regulating” him, are too. I would guess their confessors, if they have any and they are honest with them, would if released from the privilege have to testify that these guys and gals had an evil intent, at least as far as the general welfare is concerned. They even screwed the magical class called “stockholders,” which is largely a relatively few funds that hold stocks with the notion that those really smart managers will figure out how to “make money” for them. Seems to me that the “capitalist” notion was that you would invest your money, from selling your hogs or wheat or sweating your ass on the assembly line, to some group of people who would apply ingenuity and command of intellectual property to make something or provide some service that everyone else would want to buy. (Hopefully something that actually had some long-term worth, that served some part of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, and didn’t muck up the planet and where all the various externalities were forced into the price of the thing so people could value it.) ‘Tain’t worked out that way now, has it?
Seems to me that we have had a complete meltdown, probably inevitable given the bovine placidity of the American electorate and the way the spoils system works, of any of the regulating processes that at least sort of, kind of, kept the worst excesses in check for years.
I know there is a need for what some people call “slack,” room to wiggle, the little briberies and frauds and stuff like 10 mph over the speed limit and building the rec room without benefit of permits or inspection. What’s been shaking is not “slack,” it’s theft on a grand scale both from this living population and generations to come. And the effects of the theft include a lot of people dying, as in homicides. Do you smoke?
It’s not just the money — it’s the whole range of corruption, from the War on Drugs to the War on Muslims to all the other Wars declared nominally on our behalf. And it’s not like there’s no precedent for concentrated effort to do the things that the criminal law is supposed to accomplish for society: Dissuasion and Deterrence, Retribution, Restitution, Remorse and where possible, Habilitation. (DeLay tap-dancing on TV is None Of The Above.) You have to start with remembering that this set of corruptniks have been busily writing the laws, regulations, secret enforcement policies, delegations manuals, regulatory interpretive memos and other hidden law, for decades now. To the point that the ‘But it was not illegal’ defense is pandemic and meaningless. On the other hand, the “law” under which the Nuremburg Tribunal and the International Court of Justice worked is of a different character that the shit in the US Code and CFR and all those volumes of agency internal stuff, but we found a way to hang a bunch of bad guys with at least some deterrent effect and sense of retribution.
What’s happened is that if there were any George Baileys and Atticus Smiths and Mr. Smiths, or pick your own favorite unimpeachable, there are no more or only a puny set. Look at it as a “structural problem,” whatever you mean by that, maybe it’s just the sum of all sins. If there is any value in prolonging the presence of our species on the planet, however, there’s got to be a concerted effort to identify the tipping points and add some weight to the healthy side of the scales.
And as to the enforcers, as long as the set of smarty-pants lawyers and lobbyists and MBA types can wander about in the public’s banks with their shopping carts and valises without fear of retribution on consequence, what’s left is a positive-feedback, increasing-excursion function that has a Malthusian collapse as the terminal coordinates. As a government attorney, I got to see how US Attorneys picked and chose cases, too often with an eye to post-government employment in the silk-stocking corner offices, or in politics which is sleeping with the same public enemies. Michael Milken, from what I know about his antics, should have been locked away for life in a Supermax cell shared with a banjo-playing guy named Bruno who knows how to say “You sure got a purty mouth…” Instead, you got a federal judge, Ms. Kimba Wood, ‘sua sponte’ cutting the reduced sentence his Dream Team lawyers, paid for by those same ill-gotten gains that were the reason for his prosecution, were able to negotiate. Because prosecutors love easy wins, plea bargains, and penalties that look “big” but are puny compared to what was stolen but can be hung up like scalps behind the big desk and shown off to reporters and such. And you know damn well how the regulatory process has been undermined by regulatory capture, and the people who came in with Reagan and told us enforcement attorneys that we would henceforth be treating the regulated businesses as our “customers,” and doing everything in our power to accommodate and “negotiate” and a bunch of other weak-sister shit.
So are we into that dead-end space where the powers that be have sold the rest of us sheeple the notion that everything is everything and nothing means anything and resistance is futile? I don’t know. But as to what ails the body politic, there are predators and parasites and parts that are diseased and killing us off. It should not be too hard, if the lawyers and investigators at the Justice Department and FTC and SEC and equivalent state entities could shake off all those years of gradual corruption and lethargy that the Reagan Revolution ushered in, to identify the malefactors among corporate officers, their advisers and cronies who are guilty of knowingly, willfully and/or grossly negligently putting pleasing themselves and advancing their crowd at the expense of everyone else. These folks are the ones at the tipping points, with their hands on the levers of power. They could have chosen to dig foundations and build worthy structures, but instead they used the wrecking balls to knock down the walls of the banks and museums and hospitals to steal the money, the treasures and the drugs for their own pleasure.
And that “huge judgment against Pfizer?” That is a pittance, compared to the company’s profits, let alone its income. Not even a slap on the wrist, and it will disappear into a few re-set price points for drugs that average people literally cannot live without. Nice scalp for someone on the way up in the prosecutor’s office, but until heads roll, literally or figuratively, there is not a chance in hell of reining in the excesses, the disease processes, the cancers that are killing the body we all have to somehow live in.
As to the details of structure, take a look in a corporate law course book from around 1968 or 69. And youknow there are plenty of other sources and suggestions on how to fix the governance problem, how to make clear what the fiduciary duty really is, what constitutes self-dealing, the evils of ‘interlocking directorates,” all that stuff that TR went after.
“Cap and trade is the U.S plan to provide incentives to reduce carbon emissions, is it not?
I’m curious – does the suggestion reflect a disagreement that anything should be done? I notice no following policy to replace it.”
Something should be done. Eliminate all the barriers preventing Nuclear power, eliminate all agricultural and ethanol subsidies and mandates. Eliminate all protections for polluters (like coal and agribusiness) from lawsuit for violation of property rights.
As for carbon dioxide, count me in the skeptical lot, especially given the anti-environment actions of so many politicians who claim to be for the environment. I’m more than 50% sure that carbon-based climate change fear mongering is one big boondoggle to lace the pockets of pols, their buddies and energy cartels.
“I would think a nice libertarian approach would be switch to a consumption tax, deny the federal government the right to tax directly and fund it by contributions from States (as a proportion of total state taxation).”
I’m open to any taxation approach that minimizes both political discretion and favoritism and minimizes relative price distortions. So kill all exemptions. Move to one simple low tax that EVERYONE pays. Eliminate the tax accounting professional all together. That’s pure waste.
I haven’t done too much study on it, but Milton’s “Negative Income Tax” as a replacement for welfare seems like a good idea.
Eliminate payroll and medicare. Those are separated as a gimmick. Role those programs and their funding into the general revenue and stop lying to us about there being a “trust fund”. It is, after all, a pure lie.
Also, just know that I recognize the tug of war between property rights and other rights like self defense. I’m not a purely dogmatic kinda guy. But I see politics and democracy without romance.
@JTM,
No, I wasn’t after absolution of anyone.
Yes, mens rea. Of course.
No, I don’t think it’s appropriate to raise the example of a grand Ponzi scheme such as that of the one who made-off.
Yes, I did mean that I’m guessing we have “a structural problem” on our hands here. By “structure”, I of course mean either the way the market is structured or else the way its oversight is structured, or both. On this score I’d prefer your estimable opinion to a rank dismissal.
I seem never to get you to offer prescriptives. Do things really seem so inevitably doomed, so ineluctably fucked? I mean, as a worldview that works for me, actually (it did so for years of political work), but in the meantime, what’ll we do in spite of ourselves? Surely you know what I mean. We can’t wait for the next TR.
@len,
I do love it. It’s full of nuance with a sad smile.
Not to be catty, but if by chance she got frocked at San Anselmo I’d pretty well guess that they didn’t need an android to render that translation. (Especially the part about the May God, yet least of all the part about inexperience in love.)
Perhaps you recall Harper’s (mag) delight in discovering, 25 years ago, a Toyko department store window in which was displayed, at Christmastime, an effigy of Santa Claus nailed to a cross. Had Mark Twain lived to see that, he’d have paid off all his debts on that one lucky strike alone. (But Lapham got it instead.)
As for the verb “enfold”, as in, “may God…enfold you”, it takes me back many years to a time when, as part of a group of aspiring theologians, we used to kick around crackpot ideas for popularizing theology–the whole notion being an explicit exercise in dark humor. So, for example, seeing the prevalence of the bumpersticker that reads, “Shit Happens”, we thought to knock off a few theological ones that read, “Shit…Unfolds”.
They never took off, those stickers. I still don’t know why, len. May God bless the ministry of your old friend, now ordained.
Dan,
The case raises an interesting point. Theodore Olson is the man presenting arguments to the Court in favor of equal rights for corporate persons. In a recent WSJ op-ed, he makes the very good (and obvious) point that
In truth, it’s very difficult for stuff like this to happen (effectively, anyway) without some – and often significant – financial expenditure. For instance, consider Larry Lessig’s Change-Congress.org, which raises money to (among other things) commission ads that target legislators who support laws favored by their corporate donors, but which run counter to the interests of their constituents.
On one level, they’re making wonderful use of liberties guaranteed by the First Amendment. On a more mundane level, they’re just another non-profit media organization, trying to get themselves heard. To do so, they need to establish bank accounts, hire staff, commission works-for-hire, and contract for everything from office space to airtime.
It’s basic stuff – totally routine. And the need to operate like this is faced by just about anyone wanting to do anything in an industrialized economy. In fact, this near universal need was recognized in the 1800′s, resulting in the development of legal (as opposed to actual) person-hood. The extreme utility of the innovation explains why it now exists worldwide.
So Olson is right to assert that an abridgment of corporate speech with political content simply because it is produced by way of chartered organizations is a gross affront to First Amendment rights. It’s really no different from ‘defending’ my right to say I like, but only if I don’t use tools like megaphones, cameras, or printing presses.
The place where Olson’s argument goes off the rails is his assertion that the real victims in this situation are corporations themselves. He claims that
This is both breath-taking, and profoundly radical. To elevate the tools to the same status as those using them is unprecedented. Of course, he ties to conceal just how radical view is by asserting that it precedent is actually well established. But his support is thin. Specifically, he says
But then he cites – New York Times v. Sullivan (1964) – which does no such thing. Yes, it has important implications for corporations (specifically professional news organizations) involved in First Amendment cases, but it did so by ruling that Alabama law set too low a bar for public officials wanting to block criticism of their official conduct. It did not assert that the Times – by simple virtue of its corporate status – could claim full protection under the 14th Amendment (protections that would, if granted, allow it to get married, vote, and even run for office).
And Olson ignores the far more germane case – Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad(1886) which creates a far more ambiguous precedent for considering legal persons in 14th Amendment terms.
What Olson should have said is that the case is about the right of every individual to use the tools that are commonly available. Making the case about the tools themselves – as though they have some special power that elevates them to that status of actual humans – is ridiculous. And dangerous.
Right, you say, but what about the obvious inequality between those who are amateurs, and people whose mastery has elevated them to the global stage? Don’t those people gain undue advantage with legislators?
You bet. But it’s not because of what they say in public, or even in private meetings with lobbyists. It’s because legislators are almost entirely dependent on them for campaign finance. That’s the real point of leverage that is systematically used to extract value from Americans, by organizations that find exploitation easier than providing actual service at economical prices.
This is where we need to concede that the entire McCain-Feingold approach is misguided. We also need to concede that we have a greater interest in a clean system than we have in the platform of any particular candidate or party. Accordingly, any form of direct finance that allows candidates (or their parties) to know who the money is coming from is a recipe for corruption.
What we really need is a single-payer system for politicians.
> As for carbon dioxide, count me in the skeptical lot
I personally am skeptical of anthropogenic warming, but believe that governments have an obligation to heed the advice of the specialised sciences – which is currently a firm consesus supporting the idea.
Your economic suggestions don’t sound likely to ever be implemented as a whole – the political environment to enable it seems quite unlikely to occur.
But plenty of people will clamour for individual pieces that profit them (such as reducing corporate taxes without reducing corporate advantages and priviledges) which is a constant danger of liberated economics – no one with the power to implement them wants to work as hard as real competition demands.
> Who should take the rap for corporate malfeasance?
> The officers?
It’s an interesting question – supposing theft, or even death from depraved indifference (such as Bhopal), justice demands someone be accountable.
I personally think both. Corporations assets should be accessible for recompense, individuals accountable for harm.
But there is a tremendous problem in apportioning blame. An inspector at a plant may follow guidelines in good concience that their superiors have provided.
But insufficient guidelines created through shoddy and irresponsible carelessness by remote individuals unaware of the exact possible consequences are hard to pin down.
Was it the executives who knowingly paid below market rates for incompetents, the incompetents themselves, the end user of guidelines, the technical editor of them who didn’t blow a whistle, the manager who starved a division of resources, the personnel manager who over-burdened an individual etc who’se responsible?
CEO’s justify large slaries on the basis of their responsibility for success, ought we simply couple that responsibility to malfeasance as part of the price?
This is what I meant earlier about the diffusion of responsbility through out coroprate bodies being a reason they cannot be granted the rights of individuals – they cannot be held responsible for their actions in the same manner an individual can be.
I have heard people argue for corporate death penalties, but really that doesn’t provide much justice or incentive against further crimes.
@hugo: She’s on the other coast and not yet ordained but getting there. It seems to be a lot of work.
On another subject, class wars are not necessarily hot wars. The middle class doesn’t need to take up arms. That’s obviously futile. They need a strategy for using their work contracts, their buying power and their vote to disembowel the ownership class. If their attention were focused long enough, that could work. One problem is the professional incredible skill of the paid media to keep them unfocused, jumping from distraction to distraction until the juice runs out. They are sitting on their wallets. Savings are up. Spending is down. Conservative lifestyles if not conservative politics are back in vogue. The art community is waking up to its role and the facebook pages are a conduit of controlled outrage.
My sense is that this is where the class war is being waged and like any other cold war, it is slow and in small acts and bursts. The more direct rage we use against the nutcase right, the more energy we waste.
Here’s a challenge: cite five cultural/political/economic issues that can be pinged incessantly that would weaken the constipation of change. Health care is one but so far it has become an example of how to lose the debate. The power of aggregated mainstream media to rob us of facts and substitute distraction is another.
Thanks for this interesting response. First, I think that this “a corporation has all the rights of a person” schtick is enough to destroy the “strict constructionist” schtick, unless somebody can tell me where the Constitution says that a corporation has all the rights of a person. As you say, that concept, like the concept of judicial review itself, arose in the 1800′s, and was a matter of interpretation, or, as our “strict constructionists” would call it, radical activist legislating from the bench.
Second, regardless of precedent, gross affronts to the 1st Amendment, and everything else, I’m convinced that letting corporations open the floodgates means the end of everything. It’s a 50 megaton hydrogen bomb versus whatever feeble, trembling traces of democracy we still have left.
Maybe corporations have clear and uncontested rights under the 1st Amendment to blare their noxious lies 24/7 until they drown everything else out; maybe they have a perfect right to, in effect, buy as many Congressmen as they like, and then pooh-pooh any suggestion that the eleventy zillion dollars they contributed could in any way be considered a bribe or an extortion or any kind of unfair, unethical, or illegal manipulation of the legislative process.
But it will be the end of us all the same.
Prescriptives?
Turn it around, maybe? You’ve been in the belly of the beast. Tell me how YOU would turn the ship of state manned by a bunch of pirates, floating in and an economy and culture based on self-titillating consumption? Where power-tripping bureaucrats and empire builders both private and public hold sway, who could not care less about the nation as a whole, let alone the species? “Leading” a couple of generations of “Americans” taught in the B-School mode to try to emulate Gordon Gekko? Or trained like mindless Barbies and Kens to keep getting more “stuff?” How do you get people whose loyalties, such as they are, don’t extend past “who can do something for them to ‘advance’ their interests this minute or in the next quarter or budget cycle?” How do you cure cancers that infest the whole species?
Maybe reset a few things? In the ’60s and ’70s there were people on the prosecutorial side who actually pressed along a bunch of matters that put a little of the fear of God or at least potentially career-limiting enforcement into corporate types. Where did the White Hats come from, and how do you keep people like that from becoming either ineffective mopes like me, who got tired of fighting a failing rearguard action like the one the bureaucrats installed by the Bush League are doing as I write, or turncoats shilling for the Dark Side?
When Reagan’s Heritage Foundation troops arrived, enforcement of such laws as there were then was immediately stopped. The New Justice people, and the people that took over EPA e told us not to send in any more referral packages documenting violations both civil and criminal, until they put in place a host of new “policies” limiting even that first step in seeing that the laws be faithfully executed. And if you troubled to read the Bible of the New Democracy, “Mandate for Leadership,” you saw that this was just the beginning of the Contract taken out on America.
The magic word for the day is “governance.” Even the ancient Chinese, who managed to swallow many invaders and had the advantage of Confucius and a long tradition of civil service, suffer from warlordism and instabilities. And look where they are now, the Reds (their version) having displaced the Kuomintang and discovered the delights of corruption behind a screen of Puritanical rectitude. Now it appears like, having lent the
US a boatload of money, they want to borrow our failed Western notions of corporate governance in exchange. The rules of corporate governance are as subject to regulatory capture as the contents of the US Code and CFR, and the citadels have long since dragged in the Trojan horses. Borrowing ideas of corporate governance from America at this time is kind of the same stupid deal the Colonies did in locking into British jurisprudence before the reform act of 1848 or thereabouts did away with a lot of the worst abuses, a fix that didn’t happen here.
I think Bigness is one main problem. It’s harder to steal from or bomb or terrorize someone you have to look in the eye every day, in a setting where grandmothers can give you the squint-eye and the benefits of playing nice and Golden-Ruling it are more apparent, and the community tends to have an eye to the long term and those homeostatic mechanisms I yammer about tend to develop and have some force. But we are stuck, until the Big Fail, with too much Big, which gives the parasites and predators lots of blood to drain and meat to eat off the plodding dumb mass of the rest of us before we’re too weakened to carry on. It’s a dynamic system, but one that is bleeding energy and gaining entropy at an accelerating rate.
Fixes? Given the Obama response to torture, to the creators of the latest “banking crisis,” to enforcement of the Clean Water Act and Clean Air Acts, to whistleblowers, to just about everything else, in light of the kleptocracy’s desire to keep on doin’ it to us, one whole major piece of possible Change is dead on arrival. Without initiatives to rein in the selfishness and greed, with “Christians” preaching Prosperity Theology, without enforcement mechanisms of even the weakened laws we have left, without serious effort to replace all the “business-friendly” shitheads dumped into the Senior Executive Service and civil service and Pentagon by all those years of corruption, ETC., there’s not any Hope of Change.
Now if having spent a long time in the government, apparently, you have any ideas how to fix all that, to change what’s taught in B-School, to destroy the spoils system and the ready and cheap sale of legislation and regulation in the present incumbency system, I could go on, I would be glad to hear them. On the other hand, if you foresee a comfortable old age and easy death for yourself and anyone you care about, why rock the boat you are floating in while all those other mopes are drowning?
JTM,
For some reason I relish your send-up of the prosperity preachers. Remember dear Reverend Ike, whom Richard Pryor pilloried in the movie “Car Wash”? Ike used to declare that “Gawd POW-ah is prosss-perita POW-ah!” He was a kind of precursor of the Bagwan Sri Rajneesh, who finally bolted with his fleet of Rolls-Royces. You gotta love these guys.
Anyway, you and len seem to be asking the same questions. Kitty’s link is illustrative too. Personally, I don’t take a shotgun approach to change, as I really know only one thing: children. They are change agents, of course, but properly understood they must be the agents of their own change, not ours. We could set in place many conditions for their fulfillment, but we don’t do.
Every hour I spent in public service, except in the service of children, was wasted–for all the reasons you cite. It was a building of sand castles in the intertidal: the political tide comes back in and washes it all away. The laws and regulations get undone or else ignored, and the hands go back into the moneyed pockets. The motives remain, from time immemorial. You’re right.
I agree with y’all that we are awaiting the New, or at least the next. I suppose that’s why I buy into Jon’s Interregnum. But it will require leadership. Barack is the right person in the right post at the right time, but he has to summon it from within, and not by dint of Rubin’s crew or the MIC or the trial lawyers or the Chicago machine. From deep within himself. Like millions of others, I habitually pray for those in power, but nowadays especially for him.
Hugo
“Who should take the rap for corporate malfeasance? The officers? The company itself (see the huge judgment recently rendered against Pfizer)? The shareholders themselves? Some combination of these, or all of the above?”
This has been a thorn in my side for some time. The “Boom Years” were a fraud and everyone connected to it knew it.
The finance/economics dailies and blogs have been replete with examples of everything from impropriety to outright criminal activity (i.e. the incestuous relationship between rating agencies and securitization firms to blitzing low-income neighborhoods with sub-prime loans).
What’s been missing are investigations and indictments. There’s been absolutely no semblance of accountability. It’s not enough for the administration to jaw bone bank & insurance CEO’s; someone has to be held accountable. To do otherwise is to “wink” at the perps, while everyone takes notice.
“Who should take the rap for corporate malfeasance?” Those responsible for crafting, approving and implementing policies and products whose revenue streams depended upon improper, fraudulent and criminal activities. Start at the top and work down.
The kids in Pittsburgh took it to the streets. The results were predictable.
http://www.post-gazette.com/multimedia/?videoid=102387
Well that’s just it, len: “The results were predictable”, they were orchestrated more by the protesters than by law enforcement personnel. Bully for the Anarchists.
One of the brightest bulbs that ever lit in the incandescent brain of Martin Luther King, Jr., led him to film his confrontations with the Crackers. At that point he became, like the subject of his doctoral dissertation, a kind of choreographer of staged violence. Neither he nor Gandhi were strictly nonviolent; rather, they understood that when their efforts would be met by violent reaction, the reaction should be held up to the world for rebuke. (This moral compromise apparently troubled Gandhi, but not Dr. King–and, admittedly, I’m no one to judge, but that’s very, very interesting.)
The thing about the Philly protesters is that they didn’t stand for anything but stagecraft, in a relatively safe environment of public dramaturgy. I do remember, well, American and Canadian and British anarchists who once advocated for causes other than self-indulgent beard-pulling.
…and what they did, they did in real peril, and in defense of real objectives.
http://lamammals.blogspot.com/2004/08/value-of-our-values.html
King understood what he needed to do to get the cameras to follow him after failing in Albany when the locals rolled out of the punch. This is different. Now if kids go to the streets, people have a hard time discriminating a political protest from a post-football celebration.
It will take different images. Smashing the windows at Starbucks isn’t newsworthy. Last week, 30,000 Puerto Rican civil servants received layoff notices. See that in the news anywhere? Nope.
So what King was after was, for example, the right of African Americans to be treated according to the standards of decency that then obtained, in the treatment of workers. He was right, they were wrong. He won; they capitulated.
What in hell are we now supposed to claim in the name of the King family? That there are some dissatisfied Puerto Ricans? Fine. Let them sue for independence. It’s always been an option.
They are just like so many of the bloggers here. If they want to be part of the solution, then that’s just grand. But if they want to snip and snark from within, then, OK, that’s part of the point of the democracy. Yet if that’s all they’re given to doing, all they ever do, day in and out, then clearly they are to be removed.
Kids are change agents?
Sort of depends on who’s controlling the curriculum, a task at which people of ill will have busily been working, with help from larger organizations, to fill in school boards and such with Right-minded people.
I was lucky to have “liberal” teachers who taught civics and critical thinking and attention to what’s behind what you see on TV. Here in FL, where one game is to impose “competency” standards on teachers who thanks to another Bushnik are pretty much forced to “teach to the tests,” in this case the FCAT which “assesses competency” in pretty much citizenship-worthless areas — said competency standards being the leading wind for getting the Dirty Liberals Out Of Our Schools So Kids Can Pray And Pledge The Way God Intended, like it says right there in the Bible somewheres. We got Charter Schools, which are proving either to be fronts for fraud, with lots of imaginary “students” on the books to keep the tax dollars flowing to the fraud artists, or fronts for the kind of “social engineering” that the Beckerheads try to talk into existence out of some NJ teacher, who I would guess has some competence problems or a career-death-wish, recording her students singing an Obama-themed anthem. Are we even sure that was not just some effin’ Donald Segretti dirty trick plant?
The Baghwan was an alien evil guy, along with that female who ended up filling a power vacuum in that particular cult. Spend a little time on the “Christian” networks, and most of the preachers of God’s Holy Word are telling us it’s either the End Times (so send them all your money) or the Prosperity Times (so send them all your money for the boxed set of CDs of their sermons and this-here bottle of specially blesset Oil of Carioka, Blesset by the hands of Preacher Humpadame who channels the Holy Spirit into every 5 ml bottle, only five seed gifts of only $19.95 each plus shipping and handling, operators are standing by.)
What do you pray for those in power? That they will do the right thing, or do God’s will as read in by Jerry Falwell or Huckabee or some other huckster? I would just pray that the Golden Rule would somehow inflame their hearts, and if their hearts were too mean and pinched and selfish to contain all that goodness, that their hearts would just rupture.
But that’s just me.
Who removes us annoying snip(e) and snarkers? The Committee on the Present Danger?
Well, yes, JTM, indeed we do pray that the poweful, whilst in power, will adhere to the universal Golden Rule, and also to tenets exceeding that, such that we pray for a powerful person’s strength in humility, for example, or for his recognition of the the wingedness of his or her position. Personally, I pray that those in temporary positions of authority will aquit themselves in a manner befitting posterity, so that they and theirs can hold up their heads in days to come. It’s nothing mysterious. And perhaps it’s not really relevant to this blog, but that’s the story, anyway. Like it or not, Barack Obama is the steward of our hopes.
As to education, don’t get me going. I’ll take your complaints and raise you tenfold. But if ever we stop bickering, we could find a better way for the young ones. Your own particular brand of cynicism would be especially useful, I’m guessing.
John,
Your ideas will never happen. There are too many entrenched special interests – to say nothing of bureaucratic bosses – who would lose out.
No. Nothing will change in DC, no major overhauls of ineffective systems or elimination of non-working programs or streamlining of Depts, until major changes occur within Congress. And that’s not likely to happen until redistricting to eliminate gerrymandering occurs and the populous demands – nay requires – greater transparency and accountability of its representatives and federal officials.
IMHO, every rep should have to sign a statement saying he/she will meet the standards of most corporations when accepting “gifts” (including campaign donations) from PACs and corps – in other words, they can’t.
We the people should demand more from our reps and hold them to the highest standards. “Put it in writing, mister, and commit to the consequences of not living up to your written vows.”
One last notation on the current fiscal and political fiasco. In 19784, during the Reagan Admin, one of the country’s largest banks, Continental Illinois, speculated heavily in oil and gas, over leveraging to make a killing in the market. When oil & gas plummeted, C I went under. The FDIC stepped in to prevent a “too large to fail” bank from disrupting the banking system and the economy. After 2 yrs, the FDIC owned 100% of the bank. It took 4 years for the FDIC to find a buyer: Bank of America.
Shortly after this fiasco, Rep Stegall and former Fed Reserve member Glass sought passage of the Glass-Stegall Act to prevent the co-mingling of retail banking with trading (especially speculation). As a side note, Phil Gramm was in the Senate at the time…as were many of the Senators now in the Senate.
The experience and consequences of the current situation was already known. But they were ignored. Guess why?
Oops, typo: it was 1984 that CI crashed.
Very informative, V.C. And very interesting. Onions within onions, I fear. K Street smells like onions.
I pray for the little places where those without greater power than needed to protect, nurture, teach and raise up those who with them in humility acquit themselves by the love they have for each other.
Do only this and love is boundless. What then need we power?
Tomorrow we fly to the GC, enshallah, tomorrow night we’l be doing all that. Tonight I turn on the tv and there is Bound for Glory.
The universe sings.
Valerie, maybe you remember a little earlier history on Continental, touted once as “the big bank– with a little bank inside,” complete with teddy-bear motif
That bit was when Continental was “loaning” hundreds of billions to South American countries under a program created by certain wise persons within the federal government. The “loans,” of course, were just front paper for federal “guarantees,” i.e., promises that the taxpayer would fund any fallout, like, oh, maybe bankruptcy or default by those Latin Liabilities.
Several cool features, in addition to the giant dip into the taxpayers’ pockets. Seems the “loan officers,” whose heirs are now nitpicking prospective home buyers’ creditworthiness like they haven’t for 4 or 5 years, were paid a commission based on the amount of money they “loaned.” And the willingness to “recommend” a larger loan was encouraged by the Masters of Baksheesh providing whores and drugs and bribes to the Masters of the Universe. Never a thought given to the creditworthiness of the borrowing national government. No sweat! Federally Guaranteed! The Government will pay it all off! And of course like with the S&L thing, “the government” did just that.
This “incentive structure,” sounding remarkably like what was and still is in place in the Banks Too Big To Fail, was so obnoxious that at least one true Christian of my acquaintance, a partner at the former Big Eight accounting firm that “audited” the bank, left his job in disgust, being told that he WOULD NOT blow the whistle or call bullshit on this set of practices.
So anyone with an idea that there’s an “ideal” to be approached in any of “all this” has a long uphill fight to persuade anyone that anything other than “business as usual” and “giving the suckers the business” is even remotely possible.
I wonder where all those “crashed” Continental Vice Presidents, so aptly titled, landed post-crash under their Golden Parachutes?
JTMcP – I do remember. I recently wrote a whole blog post about CI. http://valkayec.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/too-big-to-fail—1984-version/
Hope the link works.