Disproportional Response
December 29th, 2008 by Jon Taplin
I think the leaders of Hamas in Gaza are idiots, but I just have to say that the Israeli bombings in Gaza (300 killed) kind of defines “disproportional response”.
I think the leaders of Hamas in Gaza are idiots, but I just have to say that the Israeli bombings in Gaza (300 killed) kind of defines “disproportional response”.
The problem, of course, is that Hamas puts its military infrastructure right in there with the population using civilians as highly publicized shields and using their deaths as very effective propaganda. The Israeli’s have done a piss poor job of publicizing the Hamas rocket attacks which are clearly aimed at civilians. That said, the response is way over the top. The Israelis could have just called weekly press conferences to say that for every rocket fired their way, there will be a pile of Hamas rubble created. Tit for tat, as it were.
I’m surprised that the Israeli’s haven’t been releasing photos showing rockets taking off from Palestinian-held buildings. They have some of the most sophisticated drone aircraft, and I can’t imagine that they don’t know exactly where 90% of the rockets have been fired from. Just put out a press release and blanket the Palestinian public with notices saying that every building used as a launch site will be blown up. Then do it one by one.
The problem, of course, is that Hamas puts its military infrastructure right in there with the population using civilians as highly publicized shields and using their deaths as very effective propaganda. The Israeli’s have done a piss poor job of publicizing the Hamas rocket attacks which are clearly aimed at civilians. That said, the response is way over the top. The Israelis could have just called weekly press conferences to say that for every rocket fired their way, there will be a pile of Hamas rubble created. Tit for tat, as it were.
I’m surprised that the Israeli’s haven’t been releasing photos showing rockets taking off from Palestinian-held buildings. They have some of the most sophisticated drone aircraft, and I can’t imagine that they don’t know exactly where 90% of the rockets have been fired from. Just put out a press release and blanket the Palestinian public with notices saying that every building used as a launch site will be blown up. Then do it one by one.
“They have some of the most sophisticated drone aircraft, and I can’t imagine that they don’t know exactly where 90% of the rockets have been fired from.”
I was thinking almost precisely the same thing myself earlier today. We must be on the same wavelength. Satellite, GPS, radar, drones, all kinds of technology could be used to spot precisely where these missiles are fired from.
It has been clear to me that both sides enjoy their game of reciprocal murder far too much to let it stop. Maybe both sides use it to release tension on their respective sides to keep things from boiling over completely.
That can’t be much comfort to the relatives of the dead.
“They have some of the most sophisticated drone aircraft, and I can’t imagine that they don’t know exactly where 90% of the rockets have been fired from.”
I was thinking almost precisely the same thing myself earlier today. We must be on the same wavelength. Satellite, GPS, radar, drones, all kinds of technology could be used to spot precisely where these missiles are fired from.
It has been clear to me that both sides enjoy their game of reciprocal murder far too much to let it stop. Maybe both sides use it to release tension on their respective sides to keep things from boiling over completely.
That can’t be much comfort to the relatives of the dead.
Anybody care to remember the USS Liberty’s bad couple of days in the eastern Mediterranean in 1967? And the “justification” and obfuscation that followed?
Pretty pictures. Propaganda, of course, but with a little truth in it nonetheless, and there’s plenty more on line for those who care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZSzdQuOqM
And has time erased absolutely all trace of a “doctrine” that once supposedly guided military action by the soldiers of Israel?
Purity of Arms?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193330587&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer
And has anyone troubled to re-read the Pentateuch, with an eye to what happened to all those non-Chosen People who were “put to the sword” and enslaved and all that, through thousands of years of Israelite history? Exodus 23:23, and ask the Canaanites, Hittities, Perizzites, Hivites, Amalekites, Midianites, Arameans, Amonites, Jebusites, and Girgashites, among others, if you can find any, about proportionate responses. But of course the Israelites took it in the neck from time to time too. So sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander, and one human with a bronze sword and spear is pretty much like any other human with a bronze sword and spear.
But hey, all us progressives should remember that “humans will be humans,” in trying to think our way through the thorny thicket of “feelings” and “loyalties” and the slippery notion we call “the Enemy” to any kind of world with less net pain in it. “But Evereybody Does It!” is a great answer to your mother telling you that something is Just Wrong.
Isn’t it neat how the people who love conflict and violence and all that can catalyze so easily another round of feckless violence? Hey, are the Israelis using any of the cluster bombs we sold them this time around?
And as always, if you haven’t read “Skinny Legs and All ” by Mr. Robbins, which pretty much captures the whole thing, we have our very own Revelationists here at home who are doing everything in their power to bring on the War in Jerusalem that presages Armageddon and the Rapture and all that good stuff, I offer that book as a nice evening’s thoughtful entertainment.
Anybody care to remember the USS Liberty’s bad couple of days in the eastern Mediterranean in 1967? And the “justification” and obfuscation that followed?
Pretty pictures. Propaganda, of course, but with a little truth in it nonetheless, and there’s plenty more on line for those who care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZSzdQuOqM
And has time erased absolutely all trace of a “doctrine” that once supposedly guided military action by the soldiers of Israel?
Purity of Arms?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193330587&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer
And has anyone troubled to re-read the Pentateuch, with an eye to what happened to all those non-Chosen People who were “put to the sword” and enslaved and all that, through thousands of years of Israelite history? Exodus 23:23, and ask the Canaanites, Hittities, Perizzites, Hivites, Amalekites, Midianites, Arameans, Amonites, Jebusites, and Girgashites, among others, if you can find any, about proportionate responses. But of course the Israelites took it in the neck from time to time too. So sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander, and one human with a bronze sword and spear is pretty much like any other human with a bronze sword and spear.
But hey, all us progressives should remember that “humans will be humans,” in trying to think our way through the thorny thicket of “feelings” and “loyalties” and the slippery notion we call “the Enemy” to any kind of world with less net pain in it. “But Evereybody Does It!” is a great answer to your mother telling you that something is Just Wrong.
Isn’t it neat how the people who love conflict and violence and all that can catalyze so easily another round of feckless violence? Hey, are the Israelis using any of the cluster bombs we sold them this time around?
And as always, if you haven’t read “Skinny Legs and All ” by Mr. Robbins, which pretty much captures the whole thing, we have our very own Revelationists here at home who are doing everything in their power to bring on the War in Jerusalem that presages Armageddon and the Rapture and all that good stuff, I offer that book as a nice evening’s thoughtful entertainment.
“I’m surprised that the Israeli’s haven’t been releasing photos showing rockets taking off from Palestinian-held buildings.”
I am not surprised.
The local considerations should be balanced by the global ones. This is also a proxy war between USA and Iran. In fact it has become more of a proxy war than a local conflict.
Others also join the chorus at either side like GB with USA and Russia with Iran. Russia joined the war since the declaration of military support few years ago for Iran soon after the Iraq invasion. Maybe the conflict can even be considered as a proxy war between USA and Russia.
All other religious stuff is just propaganda noise. Israel behaves like a state of USA, like Australia. Their economies are also quite integrated. Political and religious systems also reflect each other and even in sync sometimes.
EU is squeezed in between with their traditional systems reflecting the Anglosphere and the enormous energy dependence on Russia and Arabs.
Why is this happening now? I heard of coming Israeli elections as a factor. A little hot war that can be contained -as demonstrated many times already- is a good distraction from the economic chaos.
Petrol and other commodity prices went up. Mining mafia have been instrumental many times and they should be considered in every major event as a main factor. After all they are the richest predators in town.
They also have large interests in Russia as a weird factor. Maybe this is a signal from the mafia fathers; behave yourselves or else. Don’t touch our interests, otherwise we will burn the fucking lot. There seems to be a game within a game within a game. The main players are hidden.
True slave is given,
true master is hidden.
“I’m surprised that the Israeli’s haven’t been releasing photos showing rockets taking off from Palestinian-held buildings.”
I am not surprised.
The local considerations should be balanced by the global ones. This is also a proxy war between USA and Iran. In fact it has become more of a proxy war than a local conflict.
Others also join the chorus at either side like GB with USA and Russia with Iran. Russia joined the war since the declaration of military support few years ago for Iran soon after the Iraq invasion. Maybe the conflict can even be considered as a proxy war between USA and Russia.
All other religious stuff is just propaganda noise. Israel behaves like a state of USA, like Australia. Their economies are also quite integrated. Political and religious systems also reflect each other and even in sync sometimes.
EU is squeezed in between with their traditional systems reflecting the Anglosphere and the enormous energy dependence on Russia and Arabs.
Why is this happening now? I heard of coming Israeli elections as a factor. A little hot war that can be contained -as demonstrated many times already- is a good distraction from the economic chaos.
Petrol and other commodity prices went up. Mining mafia have been instrumental many times and they should be considered in every major event as a main factor. After all they are the richest predators in town.
They also have large interests in Russia as a weird factor. Maybe this is a signal from the mafia fathers; behave yourselves or else. Don’t touch our interests, otherwise we will burn the fucking lot. There seems to be a game within a game within a game. The main players are hidden.
True slave is given,
true master is hidden.
“The nature of reality is this: It is hidden, and it is hidden, and it is hidden.”
(Rumi)
“The nature of reality is this: It is hidden, and it is hidden, and it is hidden.”
(Rumi)
“The nature of reality is this: It is hidden, and it is hidden, and it is hidden.”
(Rumi)
At the rate they’re going, the Germans will be the first to be energy independent of Arab and Russian oil. Their solar program is pretty aggressive, and they’ve got a fair number of other alternatives as well, including nuclear. They are buying up most of Silicone Valley startup NanoSolar’s output.
At the rate they’re going, the Germans will be the first to be energy independent of Arab and Russian oil. Their solar program is pretty aggressive, and they’ve got a fair number of other alternatives as well, including nuclear. They are buying up most of Silicone Valley startup NanoSolar’s output.
At the rate they’re going, the Germans will be the first to be energy independent of Arab and Russian oil. Their solar program is pretty aggressive, and they’ve got a fair number of other alternatives as well, including nuclear. They are buying up most of Silicone Valley startup NanoSolar’s output.
I ain’t as adept as Rumi, but my own personal Rule Number One is “Nothing is ever the way you think it is.” And various permutations.
And the only definition of “reality” that ever resonated with me came from my Italian-American social psychology professor: “FOOD is the only reality.”
And are Hamas leaders any more idiotic than that guy Yasser Arafat, who working with Israeli businessmen and American “donors” and a variety of European whiz kids and politicians apparently “hamassed” a personal fortune in the billions, at the expense of almost every other person in Palestine?
http://middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
If the “goal” is personal wealth, aggrandizement and power, behind a cloud of “patriotism” and “religion” and “nascent nationalism,” looks like these “idiots” have done pretty well for themselves.
I ain’t as adept as Rumi, but my own personal Rule Number One is “Nothing is ever the way you think it is.” And various permutations.
And the only definition of “reality” that ever resonated with me came from my Italian-American social psychology professor: “FOOD is the only reality.”
And are Hamas leaders any more idiotic than that guy Yasser Arafat, who working with Israeli businessmen and American “donors” and a variety of European whiz kids and politicians apparently “hamassed” a personal fortune in the billions, at the expense of almost every other person in Palestine?
http://middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
If the “goal” is personal wealth, aggrandizement and power, behind a cloud of “patriotism” and “religion” and “nascent nationalism,” looks like these “idiots” have done pretty well for themselves.
I ain’t as adept as Rumi, but my own personal Rule Number One is “Nothing is ever the way you think it is.” And various permutations.
And the only definition of “reality” that ever resonated with me came from my Italian-American social psychology professor: “FOOD is the only reality.”
And are Hamas leaders any more idiotic than that guy Yasser Arafat, who working with Israeli businessmen and American “donors” and a variety of European whiz kids and politicians apparently “hamassed” a personal fortune in the billions, at the expense of almost every other person in Palestine?
http://middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
If the “goal” is personal wealth, aggrandizement and power, behind a cloud of “patriotism” and “religion” and “nascent nationalism,” looks like these “idiots” have done pretty well for themselves.
Israel’s actions make no sense except in the context of the election coming in February.
Israel’s actions make no sense except in the context of the election coming in February.
Israel’s actions make no sense except in the context of the election coming in February.
I quit pretending that I have anything in common with that part of the world that would enable me to understand it. It is like watching transmissions from Zeta Reticuli. I get the idea of which alien is which, which don’t like who, and who can’t watch who like which. IOW, it might as well be a movie.
So I sit these out. It isn’t for lack of compassion. It is for a complete lack of understanding that can turn compassion into fuel for one side to burn down the other.
To even quantify the risk of the mistake is to play the game with them.
I quit pretending that I have anything in common with that part of the world that would enable me to understand it. It is like watching transmissions from Zeta Reticuli. I get the idea of which alien is which, which don’t like who, and who can’t watch who like which. IOW, it might as well be a movie.
So I sit these out. It isn’t for lack of compassion. It is for a complete lack of understanding that can turn compassion into fuel for one side to burn down the other.
To even quantify the risk of the mistake is to play the game with them.
I quit pretending that I have anything in common with that part of the world that would enable me to understand it. It is like watching transmissions from Zeta Reticuli. I get the idea of which alien is which, which don’t like who, and who can’t watch who like which. IOW, it might as well be a movie.
So I sit these out. It isn’t for lack of compassion. It is for a complete lack of understanding that can turn compassion into fuel for one side to burn down the other.
To even quantify the risk of the mistake is to play the game with them.
JTM,
“FOOD is the only reality.”
Don’t forget sex.
JTM,
“FOOD is the only reality.”
Don’t forget sex.
JTM,
“FOOD is the only reality.”
Don’t forget sex.
len,
“To even quantify the risk of the mistake is to play the game with them.”
You are already playing the game with your mere existence.
len,
“To even quantify the risk of the mistake is to play the game with them.”
You are already playing the game with your mere existence.
Timing is interesting … has this anything to do with getting it done before the new guy takes over?
There’s no strategic sense, and the arguments seem to be pretty close to ‘WMD’.
Yes, Hamas rockets are scary and annoying, but they’re remarkably ineffective. Compare that with the actual deaths in Gaza, and add the deaths that follow from treating wounded in wrecked hospitals, blockaded (and no, its not only the Egyptians) medical and other supplies.
Its horrific, and it can’t be seen as discouraging terrorism. Rather, the opposite may result.
PS I await the inevitable accusation.
Timing is interesting … has this anything to do with getting it done before the new guy takes over?
There’s no strategic sense, and the arguments seem to be pretty close to ‘WMD’.
Yes, Hamas rockets are scary and annoying, but they’re remarkably ineffective. Compare that with the actual deaths in Gaza, and add the deaths that follow from treating wounded in wrecked hospitals, blockaded (and no, its not only the Egyptians) medical and other supplies.
Its horrific, and it can’t be seen as discouraging terrorism. Rather, the opposite may result.
PS I await the inevitable accusation.
Timing is interesting … has this anything to do with getting it done before the new guy takes over?
There’s no strategic sense, and the arguments seem to be pretty close to ‘WMD’.
Yes, Hamas rockets are scary and annoying, but they’re remarkably ineffective. Compare that with the actual deaths in Gaza, and add the deaths that follow from treating wounded in wrecked hospitals, blockaded (and no, its not only the Egyptians) medical and other supplies.
Its horrific, and it can’t be seen as discouraging terrorism. Rather, the opposite may result.
PS I await the inevitable accusation.
Mozzie, note the increasing range of said rockets… It’s only a matter of time before they can do 100 miles…or 200 miles…or 500 miles. And then with a dirty nuke on top it won’t matter quite how deadly a mere explosive might be. Israel has to neutralize the threat of rockets, and if diplomacy doesn’t work (not that they couldn’t try a bit harder…), then it’s military force vs. military force. Note too that with virtually every Israeli being at some level a part of the defense force, there are a lot of military personnel amongst the civilians in Israel, too. That’s one hell of an armed camp.
Mozzie, note the increasing range of said rockets… It’s only a matter of time before they can do 100 miles…or 200 miles…or 500 miles. And then with a dirty nuke on top it won’t matter quite how deadly a mere explosive might be. Israel has to neutralize the threat of rockets, and if diplomacy doesn’t work (not that they couldn’t try a bit harder…), then it’s military force vs. military force. Note too that with virtually every Israeli being at some level a part of the defense force, there are a lot of military personnel amongst the civilians in Israel, too. That’s one hell of an armed camp.
JTM,
Hamas are democratically elected and have huge support. This gives them a lot of legitimacy.
I don’t like religious politics be it Jewish, Islamic or Christian. But the middle east have been pushed into this position by the ‘west’ through the long running colonialist oppression.
Didn’t they destroy the Iranian democracy and installed Shah? Didn’t they help S.Hussein destroy Iraq democracy? I can give you many more examples around the world.
The forceful installation of the Israeli state is a very good example of wedge politics played by the ‘west’. They kicked out thousands of Palestinian families from their homes. They cleansed entire towns. Unless justice is served there will be no peace.
Be a bit more balanced in your criticisms. Jewish nutbags are as disgusting as the Islamic and Christian ones, if not more.
JTM,
Hamas are democratically elected and have huge support. This gives them a lot of legitimacy.
I don’t like religious politics be it Jewish, Islamic or Christian. But the middle east have been pushed into this position by the ‘west’ through the long running colonialist oppression.
Didn’t they destroy the Iranian democracy and installed Shah? Didn’t they help S.Hussein destroy Iraq democracy? I can give you many more examples around the world.
The forceful installation of the Israeli state is a very good example of wedge politics played by the ‘west’. They kicked out thousands of Palestinian families from their homes. They cleansed entire towns. Unless justice is served there will be no peace.
Be a bit more balanced in your criticisms. Jewish nutbags are as disgusting as the Islamic and Christian ones, if not more.
JTM,
Hamas are democratically elected and have huge support. This gives them a lot of legitimacy.
I don’t like religious politics be it Jewish, Islamic or Christian. But the middle east have been pushed into this position by the ‘west’ through the long running colonialist oppression.
Didn’t they destroy the Iranian democracy and installed Shah? Didn’t they help S.Hussein destroy Iraq democracy? I can give you many more examples around the world.
The forceful installation of the Israeli state is a very good example of wedge politics played by the ‘west’. They kicked out thousands of Palestinian families from their homes. They cleansed entire towns. Unless justice is served there will be no peace.
Be a bit more balanced in your criticisms. Jewish nutbags are as disgusting as the Islamic and Christian ones, if not more.
Just to pick and flick a nit, the majority of the rockets fired into Israel are highly portable, and fired off a tripod. Tracking where they are coming from is useful only for immediate response purposes. The folks launching them know the need to move and do so quite quickly after a salvo is fired.
Just to pick and flick a nit, the majority of the rockets fired into Israel are highly portable, and fired off a tripod. Tracking where they are coming from is useful only for immediate response purposes. The folks launching them know the need to move and do so quite quickly after a salvo is fired.
Just to pick and flick a nit, the majority of the rockets fired into Israel are highly portable, and fired off a tripod. Tracking where they are coming from is useful only for immediate response purposes. The folks launching them know the need to move and do so quite quickly after a salvo is fired.
Just to pick and flick a nit, the majority of the rockets fired into Israel are highly portable, and fired off a tripod. Tracking where they are coming from is useful only for immediate response purposes. The folks launching them know the need to move and do so quite quickly after a salvo is fired.
JTMcPhee: I stand on ceremony and salute your reference. Not only is Tom Robbins a fantastic American author, but the book you cited is one of my favorites of his. I would like to second the recommendation, and suggest that some of Jon’s readers take a chance and read it. You will be rewarded, as it is quite entertaining.
It is a certain calibre of author who can use an entire book to put forth the premise (not a conclusion or an argument, merely a premise), that perhaps, given the bloody pre-history of the Jewish peoples, that karma cannot be denied them.
If I may (albeit poorly), summarize Mr. Robbins point: When God told Moses, go there, into the land of Canaan, and put My Enemies to the sword, there are estimations archeological that Canaan was a peaceful agrarian people with roughly 100,000 inhabitants. The Jews went and slaughtered everyone that was not able-bodied slave labor, killed all the livestock that was not immediately utilizable as food.
Mr. Robbins suggests, perhaps the Holocaust was a Karmic comeuppance for the slaying of the Canaanites.
I do not weigh in on the rightness or wrongness of the premise, but the book makes many insightful observations, and floats any number of reflections. Well worth the time spent reading it.
There is no doubt a solution to the I/P conflict. But I have not the wisdom to see it.
Peace.
Let’s have some more Peace as soon as possible. While not good for the Military Industrial Complex, it certainly goes over swimmingly with Mothers.
- Zhirem
JTMcPhee: I stand on ceremony and salute your reference. Not only is Tom Robbins a fantastic American author, but the book you cited is one of my favorites of his. I would like to second the recommendation, and suggest that some of Jon’s readers take a chance and read it. You will be rewarded, as it is quite entertaining.
It is a certain calibre of author who can use an entire book to put forth the premise (not a conclusion or an argument, merely a premise), that perhaps, given the bloody pre-history of the Jewish peoples, that karma cannot be denied them.
If I may (albeit poorly), summarize Mr. Robbins point: When God told Moses, go there, into the land of Canaan, and put My Enemies to the sword, there are estimations archeological that Canaan was a peaceful agrarian people with roughly 100,000 inhabitants. The Jews went and slaughtered everyone that was not able-bodied slave labor, killed all the livestock that was not immediately utilizable as food.
Mr. Robbins suggests, perhaps the Holocaust was a Karmic comeuppance for the slaying of the Canaanites.
I do not weigh in on the rightness or wrongness of the premise, but the book makes many insightful observations, and floats any number of reflections. Well worth the time spent reading it.
There is no doubt a solution to the I/P conflict. But I have not the wisdom to see it.
Peace.
Let’s have some more Peace as soon as possible. While not good for the Military Industrial Complex, it certainly goes over swimmingly with Mothers.
- Zhirem
JTMcPhee: I stand on ceremony and salute your reference. Not only is Tom Robbins a fantastic American author, but the book you cited is one of my favorites of his. I would like to second the recommendation, and suggest that some of Jon’s readers take a chance and read it. You will be rewarded, as it is quite entertaining.
It is a certain calibre of author who can use an entire book to put forth the premise (not a conclusion or an argument, merely a premise), that perhaps, given the bloody pre-history of the Jewish peoples, that karma cannot be denied them.
If I may (albeit poorly), summarize Mr. Robbins point: When God told Moses, go there, into the land of Canaan, and put My Enemies to the sword, there are estimations archeological that Canaan was a peaceful agrarian people with roughly 100,000 inhabitants. The Jews went and slaughtered everyone that was not able-bodied slave labor, killed all the livestock that was not immediately utilizable as food.
Mr. Robbins suggests, perhaps the Holocaust was a Karmic comeuppance for the slaying of the Canaanites.
I do not weigh in on the rightness or wrongness of the premise, but the book makes many insightful observations, and floats any number of reflections. Well worth the time spent reading it.
There is no doubt a solution to the I/P conflict. But I have not the wisdom to see it.
Peace.
Let’s have some more Peace as soon as possible. While not good for the Military Industrial Complex, it certainly goes over swimmingly with Mothers.
- Zhirem
Akira, I guess the full flavor of my view of humanity doesn’t come a cross. I am an equal-opportunity curmudgeon. Whether it’s the Israelis or Hizbollah or al Quaida or the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any of the “leaders” and “followers” of one tribe or sect or party, I think humanity is working out a death wish. It’s too bad, but knowing that my little exhalations have absolutely no effect on the cosmos, I hold no brief or preferences for anyone, any party, any “nation” or set of “religious truths.”
Zhirem, from what I read of history, I doubt very sincerely that the Canaanites and Jebusites and all the other ‘ites who had discovered “agricultural civilization,” put down roots in walled cities, developed priests and kings and armies and division of labor and all that, were “peaceful.” I expect any archaeologist who has looked over the terrain would say there is plenty of evidence of everyone putting everyone else to the sword. I just don’t like hypocrisy, ever since I lost a spelling bee in grade school when I couldn’t produce the correct lexicography for that word.
As to Tom Robbins’ point, I respectfully offer that your version may be colored by your own background and views, as is mine. What I take from the book is that humans perceive the divine, spit in its eye repeatedly, glory in war, lust in healthy and not-healthy ways, and in the end, there are no answers from Outside. Like Robbins said, the answer is “You have to figure it out for yourself.” Hopefully with an eye to the Golden Rule, eschewing tribalism and bloody-mindedness, and with some effort to reduce the net suffering in the world.
Too bad that there are lots of people in I-P like the Robbins characters Isaac and Ishmael, whose innate kindness and decency and efforts to create peace, Shalom, Salaam, are destroyed by the harpies and ogres who launch rockets and drop cluster bombs as a way to stir up tribal sentiments and gain political power.
Akira, I guess the full flavor of my view of humanity doesn’t come a cross. I am an equal-opportunity curmudgeon. Whether it’s the Israelis or Hizbollah or al Quaida or the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any of the “leaders” and “followers” of one tribe or sect or party, I think humanity is working out a death wish. It’s too bad, but knowing that my little exhalations have absolutely no effect on the cosmos, I hold no brief or preferences for anyone, any party, any “nation” or set of “religious truths.”
Zhirem, from what I read of history, I doubt very sincerely that the Canaanites and Jebusites and all the other ‘ites who had discovered “agricultural civilization,” put down roots in walled cities, developed priests and kings and armies and division of labor and all that, were “peaceful.” I expect any archaeologist who has looked over the terrain would say there is plenty of evidence of everyone putting everyone else to the sword. I just don’t like hypocrisy, ever since I lost a spelling bee in grade school when I couldn’t produce the correct lexicography for that word.
As to Tom Robbins’ point, I respectfully offer that your version may be colored by your own background and views, as is mine. What I take from the book is that humans perceive the divine, spit in its eye repeatedly, glory in war, lust in healthy and not-healthy ways, and in the end, there are no answers from Outside. Like Robbins said, the answer is “You have to figure it out for yourself.” Hopefully with an eye to the Golden Rule, eschewing tribalism and bloody-mindedness, and with some effort to reduce the net suffering in the world.
Too bad that there are lots of people in I-P like the Robbins characters Isaac and Ishmael, whose innate kindness and decency and efforts to create peace, Shalom, Salaam, are destroyed by the harpies and ogres who launch rockets and drop cluster bombs as a way to stir up tribal sentiments and gain political power.
Akira, I guess the full flavor of my view of humanity doesn’t come a cross. I am an equal-opportunity curmudgeon. Whether it’s the Israelis or Hizbollah or al Quaida or the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any of the “leaders” and “followers” of one tribe or sect or party, I think humanity is working out a death wish. It’s too bad, but knowing that my little exhalations have absolutely no effect on the cosmos, I hold no brief or preferences for anyone, any party, any “nation” or set of “religious truths.”
Zhirem, from what I read of history, I doubt very sincerely that the Canaanites and Jebusites and all the other ‘ites who had discovered “agricultural civilization,” put down roots in walled cities, developed priests and kings and armies and division of labor and all that, were “peaceful.” I expect any archaeologist who has looked over the terrain would say there is plenty of evidence of everyone putting everyone else to the sword. I just don’t like hypocrisy, ever since I lost a spelling bee in grade school when I couldn’t produce the correct lexicography for that word.
As to Tom Robbins’ point, I respectfully offer that your version may be colored by your own background and views, as is mine. What I take from the book is that humans perceive the divine, spit in its eye repeatedly, glory in war, lust in healthy and not-healthy ways, and in the end, there are no answers from Outside. Like Robbins said, the answer is “You have to figure it out for yourself.” Hopefully with an eye to the Golden Rule, eschewing tribalism and bloody-mindedness, and with some effort to reduce the net suffering in the world.
Too bad that there are lots of people in I-P like the Robbins characters Isaac and Ishmael, whose innate kindness and decency and efforts to create peace, Shalom, Salaam, are destroyed by the harpies and ogres who launch rockets and drop cluster bombs as a way to stir up tribal sentiments and gain political power.
I heard Netanyahu this morning use the words “al Qaeda,” “terrorists,” and “Iran” as often as possible, along with the words “Israel,” “America” and “democracy.” One side is a shining knight in silver armor, the other side is unmitigated evil.
Murdering civilians on one side is totally wrong. Murdering civilians on the other is the only possible option.
He referred to Obama’s unfortunate quote some months ago about somebody firing rockets at his own daughters. Boy will he ever have that quote rammed down his throat for years to come. The Palestinians could say, “And if somebody locked your daughters, and their children, and their children, in a prison cell for half a century for no other crime than being citizens, then what?”
Or, “And if an American-built F16 dropped a bomb on your daughters as they slept, because a guy unconnected with them is doing terrible things two doors down, then what?”
But those questions won’t see the light of day. Because as we all know, everyone in Gaza is a member of Hamas, which is the same as being an Iranian, which is the same as being an al Qaeda operative.
I heard Netanyahu this morning use the words “al Qaeda,” “terrorists,” and “Iran” as often as possible, along with the words “Israel,” “America” and “democracy.” One side is a shining knight in silver armor, the other side is unmitigated evil.
Murdering civilians on one side is totally wrong. Murdering civilians on the other is the only possible option.
He referred to Obama’s unfortunate quote some months ago about somebody firing rockets at his own daughters. Boy will he ever have that quote rammed down his throat for years to come. The Palestinians could say, “And if somebody locked your daughters, and their children, and their children, in a prison cell for half a century for no other crime than being citizens, then what?”
Or, “And if an American-built F16 dropped a bomb on your daughters as they slept, because a guy unconnected with them is doing terrible things two doors down, then what?”
But those questions won’t see the light of day. Because as we all know, everyone in Gaza is a member of Hamas, which is the same as being an Iranian, which is the same as being an al Qaeda operative.
I heard Netanyahu this morning use the words “al Qaeda,” “terrorists,” and “Iran” as often as possible, along with the words “Israel,” “America” and “democracy.” One side is a shining knight in silver armor, the other side is unmitigated evil.
Murdering civilians on one side is totally wrong. Murdering civilians on the other is the only possible option.
He referred to Obama’s unfortunate quote some months ago about somebody firing rockets at his own daughters. Boy will he ever have that quote rammed down his throat for years to come. The Palestinians could say, “And if somebody locked your daughters, and their children, and their children, in a prison cell for half a century for no other crime than being citizens, then what?”
Or, “And if an American-built F16 dropped a bomb on your daughters as they slept, because a guy unconnected with them is doing terrible things two doors down, then what?”
But those questions won’t see the light of day. Because as we all know, everyone in Gaza is a member of Hamas, which is the same as being an Iranian, which is the same as being an al Qaeda operative.
JT: I concur with your doubts, and also your respectfully offered point that my view is colored. Doubtless these are true. Pre-historic existence is much like the poet touts: “Life is nasty, brutish and short.” Equally doubtless, that the 40 tribes were quite adept at fighting and defense was of a primary concern. I don’t know enough about archeology to know an arch from a geode, but I expect that there were imbalances of power then, the same as there are now.
You have inserted doubt into my argument, and upon reflection of your ‘coloring’ comment, you may very well be right. It has been several years since I read Skinny Legs. However, most literary details that I notice, I try to remember verbatim. i am not always successful, but I will always remember when I read the words of the book.
Perhaps, I was amazed that an author would make such a suggestion, of the Karmic Comeuppance, because they would be assailed as anti-Semitic. Without the surrounding story, and prose speaking to the conflict, two main actors being a Palestinian and a Jew who co-own a business, and the assorted supporting cast and colorings of the setting; the author who wrote such a thing would be reviled.
I need to read more history on the creation of Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians. I confess that I do not know enough.
That said, I believe that there are valid arguments on both sides of the I/P issue. Again, I have not the wisdom to see the road to Peace here.
Some disclosure: I am no professional. I am 38, and have a BA in Journalism/Mass Comm, and nearly (5 credits shy of) a degree in Philosophy. I am a registered Independent voter, who views fiscal matters conservatively, and who tends to view social matters liberally. I am curious and pensive by nature, and this has lead me to be a Skeptic. So, in matters such as these, my first inclination is to Follow The Money. So many things become clearer in today’s politics (on any level), when one entails to do this. The second (immediate) consideration for today’s Skeptic is: Qui bono (sp?, never had Latin, to my eternal shame).
With this issue, I confess to now knowing enough about the money. Israel seems to have significant wealth. They have been the second place foreign aid recipient (of the US) for many years of the last few decades. They have access to and are good customers for the US higher-tech weaponry. It is largely assumed that they have nuclear weaponry.
(actually, going to go read a bit more, and then I will be back to follow-up this longwinded and meandering post…)
- Zhirem
JT: I concur with your doubts, and also your respectfully offered point that my view is colored. Doubtless these are true. Pre-historic existence is much like the poet touts: “Life is nasty, brutish and short.” Equally doubtless, that the 40 tribes were quite adept at fighting and defense was of a primary concern. I don’t know enough about archeology to know an arch from a geode, but I expect that there were imbalances of power then, the same as there are now.
You have inserted doubt into my argument, and upon reflection of your ‘coloring’ comment, you may very well be right. It has been several years since I read Skinny Legs. However, most literary details that I notice, I try to remember verbatim. i am not always successful, but I will always remember when I read the words of the book.
Perhaps, I was amazed that an author would make such a suggestion, of the Karmic Comeuppance, because they would be assailed as anti-Semitic. Without the surrounding story, and prose speaking to the conflict, two main actors being a Palestinian and a Jew who co-own a business, and the assorted supporting cast and colorings of the setting; the author who wrote such a thing would be reviled.
I need to read more history on the creation of Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians. I confess that I do not know enough.
That said, I believe that there are valid arguments on both sides of the I/P issue. Again, I have not the wisdom to see the road to Peace here.
Some disclosure: I am no professional. I am 38, and have a BA in Journalism/Mass Comm, and nearly (5 credits shy of) a degree in Philosophy. I am a registered Independent voter, who views fiscal matters conservatively, and who tends to view social matters liberally. I am curious and pensive by nature, and this has lead me to be a Skeptic. So, in matters such as these, my first inclination is to Follow The Money. So many things become clearer in today’s politics (on any level), when one entails to do this. The second (immediate) consideration for today’s Skeptic is: Qui bono (sp?, never had Latin, to my eternal shame).
With this issue, I confess to now knowing enough about the money. Israel seems to have significant wealth. They have been the second place foreign aid recipient (of the US) for many years of the last few decades. They have access to and are good customers for the US higher-tech weaponry. It is largely assumed that they have nuclear weaponry.
(actually, going to go read a bit more, and then I will be back to follow-up this longwinded and meandering post…)
- Zhirem
JT: I concur with your doubts, and also your respectfully offered point that my view is colored. Doubtless these are true. Pre-historic existence is much like the poet touts: “Life is nasty, brutish and short.” Equally doubtless, that the 40 tribes were quite adept at fighting and defense was of a primary concern. I don’t know enough about archeology to know an arch from a geode, but I expect that there were imbalances of power then, the same as there are now.
You have inserted doubt into my argument, and upon reflection of your ‘coloring’ comment, you may very well be right. It has been several years since I read Skinny Legs. However, most literary details that I notice, I try to remember verbatim. i am not always successful, but I will always remember when I read the words of the book.
Perhaps, I was amazed that an author would make such a suggestion, of the Karmic Comeuppance, because they would be assailed as anti-Semitic. Without the surrounding story, and prose speaking to the conflict, two main actors being a Palestinian and a Jew who co-own a business, and the assorted supporting cast and colorings of the setting; the author who wrote such a thing would be reviled.
I need to read more history on the creation of Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians. I confess that I do not know enough.
That said, I believe that there are valid arguments on both sides of the I/P issue. Again, I have not the wisdom to see the road to Peace here.
Some disclosure: I am no professional. I am 38, and have a BA in Journalism/Mass Comm, and nearly (5 credits shy of) a degree in Philosophy. I am a registered Independent voter, who views fiscal matters conservatively, and who tends to view social matters liberally. I am curious and pensive by nature, and this has lead me to be a Skeptic. So, in matters such as these, my first inclination is to Follow The Money. So many things become clearer in today’s politics (on any level), when one entails to do this. The second (immediate) consideration for today’s Skeptic is: Qui bono (sp?, never had Latin, to my eternal shame).
With this issue, I confess to now knowing enough about the money. Israel seems to have significant wealth. They have been the second place foreign aid recipient (of the US) for many years of the last few decades. They have access to and are good customers for the US higher-tech weaponry. It is largely assumed that they have nuclear weaponry.
(actually, going to go read a bit more, and then I will be back to follow-up this longwinded and meandering post…)
- Zhirem
JT: I concur with your doubts, and also your respectfully offered point that my view is colored. Doubtless these are true. Pre-historic existence is much like the poet touts: “Life is nasty, brutish and short.” Equally doubtless, that the 40 tribes were quite adept at fighting and defense was of a primary concern. I don’t know enough about archeology to know an arch from a geode, but I expect that there were imbalances of power then, the same as there are now.
You have inserted doubt into my argument, and upon reflection of your ‘coloring’ comment, you may very well be right. It has been several years since I read Skinny Legs. However, most literary details that I notice, I try to remember verbatim. i am not always successful, but I will always remember when I read the words of the book.
Perhaps, I was amazed that an author would make such a suggestion, of the Karmic Comeuppance, because they would be assailed as anti-Semitic. Without the surrounding story, and prose speaking to the conflict, two main actors being a Palestinian and a Jew who co-own a business, and the assorted supporting cast and colorings of the setting; the author who wrote such a thing would be reviled.
I need to read more history on the creation of Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians. I confess that I do not know enough.
That said, I believe that there are valid arguments on both sides of the I/P issue. Again, I have not the wisdom to see the road to Peace here.
Some disclosure: I am no professional. I am 38, and have a BA in Journalism/Mass Comm, and nearly (5 credits shy of) a degree in Philosophy. I am a registered Independent voter, who views fiscal matters conservatively, and who tends to view social matters liberally. I am curious and pensive by nature, and this has lead me to be a Skeptic. So, in matters such as these, my first inclination is to Follow The Money. So many things become clearer in today’s politics (on any level), when one entails to do this. The second (immediate) consideration for today’s Skeptic is: Qui bono (sp?, never had Latin, to my eternal shame).
With this issue, I confess to now knowing enough about the money. Israel seems to have significant wealth. They have been the second place foreign aid recipient (of the US) for many years of the last few decades. They have access to and are good customers for the US higher-tech weaponry. It is largely assumed that they have nuclear weaponry.
(actually, going to go read a bit more, and then I will be back to follow-up this longwinded and meandering post…)
- Zhirem
whoa. and upon a re-read (post-post), an edit:
“I confess to now knowing enough about the money.”
now should be *not*
- Z
whoa. and upon a re-read (post-post), an edit:
“I confess to now knowing enough about the money.”
now should be *not*
- Z
whoa. and upon a re-read (post-post), an edit:
“I confess to now knowing enough about the money.”
now should be *not*
- Z
Zhirem, there’s lots of material on Israel and Palestine and greed and money and weapons and the murderous human impulse we all carry around.
Here is one thing I recall from the Atlantic Monthly, pretty well researched it seems and it gives a nice picture of the incestuous relationships that underlie the “great conflicts” that motivate people to shoot other people they don’t know and strap on Jihadicide belts to go look for post-morten virgins. Some Palestinians saw Yasser Arafat as a noble human. What do you think? And now we have “Bibbi” Netanyahu on deck to stir the pot some more, using “fear of the Enemy” and “patriotism,” that last refuge of the scoundrel, as a ladder to power again.
http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
As with so many things, following the money (which is a surrogate for all the other human pleasures, sacred, profane and obscene) seems to me usually the best way to figure out what is actually going on.
Some wise guy said “the proper study of mankind is man.” The more I study, the more I see of the REAL “man,” the less (and more) I have use for our species.
Not that 6.7 billion people give a toot what I think or believe.
Zhirem, there’s lots of material on Israel and Palestine and greed and money and weapons and the murderous human impulse we all carry around.
Here is one thing I recall from the Atlantic Monthly, pretty well researched it seems and it gives a nice picture of the incestuous relationships that underlie the “great conflicts” that motivate people to shoot other people they don’t know and strap on Jihadicide belts to go look for post-morten virgins. Some Palestinians saw Yasser Arafat as a noble human. What do you think? And now we have “Bibbi” Netanyahu on deck to stir the pot some more, using “fear of the Enemy” and “patriotism,” that last refuge of the scoundrel, as a ladder to power again.
http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
As with so many things, following the money (which is a surrogate for all the other human pleasures, sacred, profane and obscene) seems to me usually the best way to figure out what is actually going on.
Some wise guy said “the proper study of mankind is man.” The more I study, the more I see of the REAL “man,” the less (and more) I have use for our species.
Not that 6.7 billion people give a toot what I think or believe.
Zhirem, there’s lots of material on Israel and Palestine and greed and money and weapons and the murderous human impulse we all carry around.
Here is one thing I recall from the Atlantic Monthly, pretty well researched it seems and it gives a nice picture of the incestuous relationships that underlie the “great conflicts” that motivate people to shoot other people they don’t know and strap on Jihadicide belts to go look for post-morten virgins. Some Palestinians saw Yasser Arafat as a noble human. What do you think? And now we have “Bibbi” Netanyahu on deck to stir the pot some more, using “fear of the Enemy” and “patriotism,” that last refuge of the scoundrel, as a ladder to power again.
http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=192&a=45
As with so many things, following the money (which is a surrogate for all the other human pleasures, sacred, profane and obscene) seems to me usually the best way to figure out what is actually going on.
Some wise guy said “the proper study of mankind is man.” The more I study, the more I see of the REAL “man,” the less (and more) I have use for our species.
Not that 6.7 billion people give a toot what I think or believe.
Dan, how about a poll to see who Netanyahoo most resembles in the American political scene? Compound personalities might be acceptable. I would put him down as a combination of Rush Limbaugh, Gen. Curtis LeMay, and Karl Rove/Newt Gingrich. Might help inform the debate, although all discourse over I-P apparently descends to tribalism almost imediately.
Dan, how about a poll to see who Netanyahoo most resembles in the American political scene? Compound personalities might be acceptable. I would put him down as a combination of Rush Limbaugh, Gen. Curtis LeMay, and Karl Rove/Newt Gingrich. Might help inform the debate, although all discourse over I-P apparently descends to tribalism almost imediately.
Dan, how about a poll to see who Netanyahoo most resembles in the American political scene? Compound personalities might be acceptable. I would put him down as a combination of Rush Limbaugh, Gen. Curtis LeMay, and Karl Rove/Newt Gingrich. Might help inform the debate, although all discourse over I-P apparently descends to tribalism almost imediately.
JT:
Cynic or optimist, every human uses their personal frame of reference to gauge the reality they exist in. If there is a downside to humanity as a social animal, it is the simple fact that every brain processes slightly differently, every experience is analyzed uniquely. The result is that there never seems to be a general consensus to what “truth” is.
To drag favorite authors into the mix, I found Anthony Burgess’ argument that there are only 2 views of humanity existent fascinating.
You either believe that man is born in grace and therefore must be protected from evil or man is born evil and must be led toward grace. In the one instance, you need a strong army, in the other, a strong police force.
All the permutations between those poles flit through the collective consciousness and in the end, I guess each of us grasps what we believe is “the truth”, whatever that may be.
Such is the status of the Palestinians and the Israelis. Karma, covenants, tribes, promised lands or what have you are merely the ribbons we decorate the corpses with. The dead are the dead are the dead.
The Golden Rule is a good one. “You don’t know a man until you walk around in his skin” is an excellent maxim – I just wish I knew a way to apply them so that they stick and were absorbed. Face it, it’s hard to demonize anyone if you understand ‘em.
JT:
Cynic or optimist, every human uses their personal frame of reference to gauge the reality they exist in. If there is a downside to humanity as a social animal, it is the simple fact that every brain processes slightly differently, every experience is analyzed uniquely. The result is that there never seems to be a general consensus to what “truth” is.
To drag favorite authors into the mix, I found Anthony Burgess’ argument that there are only 2 views of humanity existent fascinating.
You either believe that man is born in grace and therefore must be protected from evil or man is born evil and must be led toward grace. In the one instance, you need a strong army, in the other, a strong police force.
All the permutations between those poles flit through the collective consciousness and in the end, I guess each of us grasps what we believe is “the truth”, whatever that may be.
Such is the status of the Palestinians and the Israelis. Karma, covenants, tribes, promised lands or what have you are merely the ribbons we decorate the corpses with. The dead are the dead are the dead.
The Golden Rule is a good one. “You don’t know a man until you walk around in his skin” is an excellent maxim – I just wish I knew a way to apply them so that they stick and were absorbed. Face it, it’s hard to demonize anyone if you understand ‘em.
JT:
Cynic or optimist, every human uses their personal frame of reference to gauge the reality they exist in. If there is a downside to humanity as a social animal, it is the simple fact that every brain processes slightly differently, every experience is analyzed uniquely. The result is that there never seems to be a general consensus to what “truth” is.
To drag favorite authors into the mix, I found Anthony Burgess’ argument that there are only 2 views of humanity existent fascinating.
You either believe that man is born in grace and therefore must be protected from evil or man is born evil and must be led toward grace. In the one instance, you need a strong army, in the other, a strong police force.
All the permutations between those poles flit through the collective consciousness and in the end, I guess each of us grasps what we believe is “the truth”, whatever that may be.
Such is the status of the Palestinians and the Israelis. Karma, covenants, tribes, promised lands or what have you are merely the ribbons we decorate the corpses with. The dead are the dead are the dead.
The Golden Rule is a good one. “You don’t know a man until you walk around in his skin” is an excellent maxim – I just wish I knew a way to apply them so that they stick and were absorbed. Face it, it’s hard to demonize anyone if you understand ‘em.
JT:
Cynic or optimist, every human uses their personal frame of reference to gauge the reality they exist in. If there is a downside to humanity as a social animal, it is the simple fact that every brain processes slightly differently, every experience is analyzed uniquely. The result is that there never seems to be a general consensus to what “truth” is.
To drag favorite authors into the mix, I found Anthony Burgess’ argument that there are only 2 views of humanity existent fascinating.
You either believe that man is born in grace and therefore must be protected from evil or man is born evil and must be led toward grace. In the one instance, you need a strong army, in the other, a strong police force.
All the permutations between those poles flit through the collective consciousness and in the end, I guess each of us grasps what we believe is “the truth”, whatever that may be.
Such is the status of the Palestinians and the Israelis. Karma, covenants, tribes, promised lands or what have you are merely the ribbons we decorate the corpses with. The dead are the dead are the dead.
The Golden Rule is a good one. “You don’t know a man until you walk around in his skin” is an excellent maxim – I just wish I knew a way to apply them so that they stick and were absorbed. Face it, it’s hard to demonize anyone if you understand ‘em.
Tom, those are good points. JT, those are also good points. I confess a certain understanding (albeit limited) of the MidEast, and historical contexts.
At the risk of devolving into meta-discussion here, I could argue, that each of us, unique in our experiences, ultimately, cannot know the contents of another person’s mind. Regardless of how hard we might try, the simple fact that the latticework of our experiences, and the scaffolding of our values built from said experiences are — ultimately unique to each individual, prevents us from truly knowing another person’s mind from the context of our own.
That said, it is my belief that if we can agree upon this single given as I have stated it, then one is led logically to the concept of tolerance and co-existence.
How we can convince the interested parties that this is the best course of action, I have *no* idea.
- Zhirem
Tom, those are good points. JT, those are also good points. I confess a certain understanding (albeit limited) of the MidEast, and historical contexts.
At the risk of devolving into meta-discussion here, I could argue, that each of us, unique in our experiences, ultimately, cannot know the contents of another person’s mind. Regardless of how hard we might try, the simple fact that the latticework of our experiences, and the scaffolding of our values built from said experiences are — ultimately unique to each individual, prevents us from truly knowing another person’s mind from the context of our own.
That said, it is my belief that if we can agree upon this single given as I have stated it, then one is led logically to the concept of tolerance and co-existence.
How we can convince the interested parties that this is the best course of action, I have *no* idea.
- Zhirem
Tom, those are good points. JT, those are also good points. I confess a certain understanding (albeit limited) of the MidEast, and historical contexts.
At the risk of devolving into meta-discussion here, I could argue, that each of us, unique in our experiences, ultimately, cannot know the contents of another person’s mind. Regardless of how hard we might try, the simple fact that the latticework of our experiences, and the scaffolding of our values built from said experiences are — ultimately unique to each individual, prevents us from truly knowing another person’s mind from the context of our own.
That said, it is my belief that if we can agree upon this single given as I have stated it, then one is led logically to the concept of tolerance and co-existence.
How we can convince the interested parties that this is the best course of action, I have *no* idea.
- Zhirem
… and Tom, I concur, the Golden Rule is a good one. If there were none other rules, then that is a good one to have. It only falls apart with the sadists and the masochists…
- Z
… and Tom, I concur, the Golden Rule is a good one. If there were none other rules, then that is a good one to have. It only falls apart with the sadists and the masochists…
- Z
@akira: “You are already playing the game with your mere existence.”
Games are choices of choices. I choose no choice in this game Insufficient information. Yes there is the news but it doesn’t tell me what I would need to know to choose: why they accept their hell.
The third state Burgess doesn’t admit is humans can be born innocent of such concerns as good and evil, then have them become necessary conceits as a price of communication with the living.
In one of the apocryphal texts, Jesus is to have said to one in heaven who asked about eternal dammnation that the biggest secret God keeps from humans is there is no such thing. Everyone goes to heaven eventually but that if humans knew that, they wouldn’t even attempt to behave. They have to work it out themselves.
So at least in texts, we have a long documented history of not trusting ourselves and reflect that in the opinions we ascribe to deities who have the power to make us behave but choose otherwise. The power of choice of choice gives us not only the freedom to misbehave, but the ability to ingenious at it.
If one accepts models such as fractal universe, then every level judges the level below it and worships the level above it. Perhaps it is not people but planets that have to evolve to become the judges of our actions. Then again, perhaps people evolve to judge themselves and hell is a place we wait until we decide.
Waiting for the next rocket to fall sounds like hell to me. The Golden Rule allows for people in hell to fire away if they accept the judgement.
@akira: “You are already playing the game with your mere existence.”
Games are choices of choices. I choose no choice in this game Insufficient information. Yes there is the news but it doesn’t tell me what I would need to know to choose: why they accept their hell.
The third state Burgess doesn’t admit is humans can be born innocent of such concerns as good and evil, then have them become necessary conceits as a price of communication with the living.
In one of the apocryphal texts, Jesus is to have said to one in heaven who asked about eternal dammnation that the biggest secret God keeps from humans is there is no such thing. Everyone goes to heaven eventually but that if humans knew that, they wouldn’t even attempt to behave. They have to work it out themselves.
So at least in texts, we have a long documented history of not trusting ourselves and reflect that in the opinions we ascribe to deities who have the power to make us behave but choose otherwise. The power of choice of choice gives us not only the freedom to misbehave, but the ability to ingenious at it.
If one accepts models such as fractal universe, then every level judges the level below it and worships the level above it. Perhaps it is not people but planets that have to evolve to become the judges of our actions. Then again, perhaps people evolve to judge themselves and hell is a place we wait until we decide.
Waiting for the next rocket to fall sounds like hell to me. The Golden Rule allows for people in hell to fire away if they accept the judgement.
RT – so its a pre-emptive strike against presumptive weapons?
They might get longer range, they might get dirty nukes, they might ….
Just so as we’re clear.
Because maybe that could justify even more speculative endeavours and even more Palestinian deaths.
To reiterate – the present impact on Israel is mostly fear and feelings of insecurity. I don’t support the rocket attacks – there have been deaths – but it doesn’t justify the killing of 300 and the destruction of the infrastructure of a region, when the Israelis can certainly prevent its reconstruction.
RT – so its a pre-emptive strike against presumptive weapons?
They might get longer range, they might get dirty nukes, they might ….
Just so as we’re clear.
Because maybe that could justify even more speculative endeavours and even more Palestinian deaths.
To reiterate – the present impact on Israel is mostly fear and feelings of insecurity. I don’t support the rocket attacks – there have been deaths – but it doesn’t justify the killing of 300 and the destruction of the infrastructure of a region, when the Israelis can certainly prevent its reconstruction.
Anybody know for sure whether Muslims and Jews (and Christians, I guess) pray to the same God?
Popular T-shirt logo from Vietnam era:
“
Anybody know for sure whether Muslims and Jews (and Christians, I guess) pray to the same God?
Popular T-shirt logo from Vietnam era:
“
Anybody know for sure whether Muslims and Jews (and Christians, I guess) pray to the same God?
Popular T-shirt logo from Vietnam era:
“
“KILL ‘EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT ‘EM OUT!”
More recent bumper sticker:
“OH HECK, LET’S JUST ALL KILL EACH OTHER AND LET OUR GODS SORT US OUT!”
Rick Turner, shall we posit that some day the roaches will have nukular weapons? Would that enable us to finally figure a way to kill ‘em all off so they’d stay the heck out of our kitchen cabinets for good? And make sure that THEY don’t inherit the world, at least, even if we humans have killed ourselves off?
Hey, at least we’d have a common enemy.
Man, I just love people who are into the positive feedback loop that starts with “need for Enemy,” moves on to “Perceive potential threat,” jumps to “billions for ‘defense’,” and ends with “everybody die!”
And these folks tell anyone who displays any “decency” or “kindness” or “trust” that they are just a bunch of saps and suckers who DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD IS A DANGEROUS PLACE AND EVERY OTHER TRIBES’ HANDS ARE TURNED AGAINST US AND WE HAVE TO KILL THEM BEFORE THEY TAKE US OVER!!!!!
Too bad that thanks to the futility and fatality of that kind of thinking, the poor sorry dumbos rooting for the Golden Rule are just dead beef headed for the meatgrinder of history. Just makes a squity-eyed, flinty-spoken tough guy just so PROUD, y’know?
“KILL ‘EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT ‘EM OUT!”
More recent bumper sticker:
“OH HECK, LET’S JUST ALL KILL EACH OTHER AND LET OUR GODS SORT US OUT!”
Rick Turner, shall we posit that some day the roaches will have nukular weapons? Would that enable us to finally figure a way to kill ‘em all off so they’d stay the heck out of our kitchen cabinets for good? And make sure that THEY don’t inherit the world, at least, even if we humans have killed ourselves off?
Hey, at least we’d have a common enemy.
Man, I just love people who are into the positive feedback loop that starts with “need for Enemy,” moves on to “Perceive potential threat,” jumps to “billions for ‘defense’,” and ends with “everybody die!”
And these folks tell anyone who displays any “decency” or “kindness” or “trust” that they are just a bunch of saps and suckers who DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD IS A DANGEROUS PLACE AND EVERY OTHER TRIBES’ HANDS ARE TURNED AGAINST US AND WE HAVE TO KILL THEM BEFORE THEY TAKE US OVER!!!!!
Too bad that thanks to the futility and fatality of that kind of thinking, the poor sorry dumbos rooting for the Golden Rule are just dead beef headed for the meatgrinder of history. Just makes a squity-eyed, flinty-spoken tough guy just so PROUD, y’know?
“KILL ‘EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT ‘EM OUT!”
More recent bumper sticker:
“OH HECK, LET’S JUST ALL KILL EACH OTHER AND LET OUR GODS SORT US OUT!”
Rick Turner, shall we posit that some day the roaches will have nukular weapons? Would that enable us to finally figure a way to kill ‘em all off so they’d stay the heck out of our kitchen cabinets for good? And make sure that THEY don’t inherit the world, at least, even if we humans have killed ourselves off?
Hey, at least we’d have a common enemy.
Man, I just love people who are into the positive feedback loop that starts with “need for Enemy,” moves on to “Perceive potential threat,” jumps to “billions for ‘defense’,” and ends with “everybody die!”
And these folks tell anyone who displays any “decency” or “kindness” or “trust” that they are just a bunch of saps and suckers who DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD IS A DANGEROUS PLACE AND EVERY OTHER TRIBES’ HANDS ARE TURNED AGAINST US AND WE HAVE TO KILL THEM BEFORE THEY TAKE US OVER!!!!!
Too bad that thanks to the futility and fatality of that kind of thinking, the poor sorry dumbos rooting for the Golden Rule are just dead beef headed for the meatgrinder of history. Just makes a squity-eyed, flinty-spoken tough guy just so PROUD, y’know?
Until the Palestinians realize that a) they are pawns in the game with the Saudis being the puppet masters, and b) that killing all the Jews in the Middle East will not bring them either prosperity or guarantee them a place in heaven this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years. And until the Israelis start doing something positive for the Palestinians like helping them build an independent economy in a homeland, this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years.
It’s going to take major conceptual shifts on both sides to change this dynamic.
Until the Palestinians realize that a) they are pawns in the game with the Saudis being the puppet masters, and b) that killing all the Jews in the Middle East will not bring them either prosperity or guarantee them a place in heaven this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years. And until the Israelis start doing something positive for the Palestinians like helping them build an independent economy in a homeland, this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years.
It’s going to take major conceptual shifts on both sides to change this dynamic.
Until the Palestinians realize that a) they are pawns in the game with the Saudis being the puppet masters, and b) that killing all the Jews in the Middle East will not bring them either prosperity or guarantee them a place in heaven this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years. And until the Israelis start doing something positive for the Palestinians like helping them build an independent economy in a homeland, this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years.
It’s going to take major conceptual shifts on both sides to change this dynamic.
Until the Palestinians realize that a) they are pawns in the game with the Saudis being the puppet masters, and b) that killing all the Jews in the Middle East will not bring them either prosperity or guarantee them a place in heaven this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years. And until the Israelis start doing something positive for the Palestinians like helping them build an independent economy in a homeland, this whole thing will just go on for another thousand years.
It’s going to take major conceptual shifts on both sides to change this dynamic.
Or one at a time, a perp connecting the positive lead to the rocket stops and says, “why bother?” and just stops. In fact, if that doesn’t happen, it never stops.
They are in a rage cycle, Rick. Near-real time events broadcast wide sustain it in the culture. Because of the cycle of how long the event cycle has run, the cultural power law tracks it by name and keeps it alive. Terror. SR-locked.
The question is, will a conceptual shift in the text cause enough perps connecting wires to stop? Today they are all killing civilians.
Why isn’t that abhorrent enough for the perps to quit buying batteries for their rockets?
Or one at a time, a perp connecting the positive lead to the rocket stops and says, “why bother?” and just stops. In fact, if that doesn’t happen, it never stops.
They are in a rage cycle, Rick. Near-real time events broadcast wide sustain it in the culture. Because of the cycle of how long the event cycle has run, the cultural power law tracks it by name and keeps it alive. Terror. SR-locked.
The question is, will a conceptual shift in the text cause enough perps connecting wires to stop? Today they are all killing civilians.
Why isn’t that abhorrent enough for the perps to quit buying batteries for their rockets?