Faith and The Future
Earlier this year Paul Krugman noted that the U.S, economy is suffering from “a crisis of faith”, implying that we had lost trust in the institutions of capitalism. The word “credit” comes from the Latin root–Credo–”I believe.” When we don’t believe our President or Hank Paulson or the CEO of Citibank, the whole edifice of contemporary American economics begins to crumple.
Much of this edifice has been built on the theories of Milton Friedman and the Chicago School which believes that we humans are essentially mechanical welfare maximizing tools. Contemporary economists don’t like words like “faith”, because they are not mathematical constructs that can plugged into a formula. But the economists, so sure in their formulas, believed that human welfare was measured by possessions–”when you die, the one with the most toys wins”.
But what if we could build a new economics based around the notion of ethics, community and stewardship of both our planet and our culture? Part of the Rebuilding America, I have been talking about is the realization that our obsessive consumerism was really only a way to anesthesize ourselves against the dread of a culture full of stress and empty of meaning. Part of the reorientation might require us to rethink “the Growth Imperative”–the idea that human welfare can only be increased if the economy grows at the maximum rate without excess inflation. The conservative economist Huber
Cut down the last redwood for chopsticks, harpoon the last blue whale for sushi, and the additional mouths fed will nourish additional human brains, which will soon invent ways to replace blubber with Olestra and pine with plastic. Humanity can survive just fine in a planet- covering crypt of concrete and computers.
I don’t want to live in Peter Huber’s world and so I have faith that we as a country can create a new social compact that will not be based on mathematics and notions of self interest, but rather on caring, trust and reciprocity. Of course America’s reinvention will require political will, but it will also need a spiritual and cultural transformation that will be just as wrenching.
I admire your conviction, Jon, but it’s going to be a tough road. It only takes one person like Huber to game the system to make life difficult for the rest of us.
As for Huber’s beliefs: Cut down the last redwood for chopsticks, harpoon the last blue whale for sushi, and the additional mouths fed will nourish additional human brains. This assumes that we already know all there is to know about the value of resources. Clearly this is not true. Every year we learn more about the ways in which the world’s ecosystem is connected. What if taking whales out of the ecosystem also means the death of other things we need? Furthermore, what if there is something interesting in the DNA of species that could be of tremendous value to us in the future, but we don’t know it yet? Preservation diversity is by far a smarter long term strategy.
It strikes me Huber’s thinking is very, very much set in the industrial era mindset of the early 20th century, when what we need are 21st century approaches to planning for the future.
I realize she’s been invoked several times recently, but I can’t help but quote Joni one more time. “Don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone.”
I admire your conviction, Jon, but it’s going to be a tough road. It only takes one person like Huber to game the system to make life difficult for the rest of us.
As for Huber’s beliefs: Cut down the last redwood for chopsticks, harpoon the last blue whale for sushi, and the additional mouths fed will nourish additional human brains. This assumes that we already know all there is to know about the value of resources. Clearly this is not true. Every year we learn more about the ways in which the world’s ecosystem is connected. What if taking whales out of the ecosystem also means the death of other things we need? Furthermore, what if there is something interesting in the DNA of species that could be of tremendous value to us in the future, but we don’t know it yet? Preservation diversity is by far a smarter long term strategy.
It strikes me Huber’s thinking is very, very much set in the industrial era mindset of the early 20th century, when what we need are 21st century approaches to planning for the future.
I realize she’s been invoked several times recently, but I can’t help but quote Joni one more time. “Don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone.”
I admire your conviction, Jon, but it’s going to be a tough road. It only takes one person like Huber to game the system to make life difficult for the rest of us.
As for Huber’s beliefs: Cut down the last redwood for chopsticks, harpoon the last blue whale for sushi, and the additional mouths fed will nourish additional human brains. This assumes that we already know all there is to know about the value of resources. Clearly this is not true. Every year we learn more about the ways in which the world’s ecosystem is connected. What if taking whales out of the ecosystem also means the death of other things we need? Furthermore, what if there is something interesting in the DNA of species that could be of tremendous value to us in the future, but we don’t know it yet? Preservation diversity is by far a smarter long term strategy.
It strikes me Huber’s thinking is very, very much set in the industrial era mindset of the early 20th century, when what we need are 21st century approaches to planning for the future.
I realize she’s been invoked several times recently, but I can’t help but quote Joni one more time. “Don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone.”
At this point, I’m not so sure that it matters whether or not human welfare is measured by possessions.
In our system, humans rarely are making the money for themselves–they are making it for corporations. Corporations will always necessarily encourage obsessive consumerism, because they’re the ones feeding the obsessive consumers. They’re also legally obligated to maximize shareholder profits. It isn’t even human nature that’s driving this, or a law of economics–but legal obligations.
We may not be able to change how we measure our own human welfare, but we can absolutely change the incentives and what behavior will maximize corporate profits. We might just have to decide what behaviors to reward, monetarily, likely with government funds that do what we want as a society but which is non-profitable in a free market economy.
Of course, this sounds a lot like government planning of the economy. Which is not terribly popular. On the other hand, it could be done right. Won’t be, though.
I’m just hoping we don’t destroy humanity before the Singularity rolls in.
At this point, I’m not so sure that it matters whether or not human welfare is measured by possessions.
In our system, humans rarely are making the money for themselves–they are making it for corporations. Corporations will always necessarily encourage obsessive consumerism, because they’re the ones feeding the obsessive consumers. They’re also legally obligated to maximize shareholder profits. It isn’t even human nature that’s driving this, or a law of economics–but legal obligations.
We may not be able to change how we measure our own human welfare, but we can absolutely change the incentives and what behavior will maximize corporate profits. We might just have to decide what behaviors to reward, monetarily, likely with government funds that do what we want as a society but which is non-profitable in a free market economy.
Of course, this sounds a lot like government planning of the economy. Which is not terribly popular. On the other hand, it could be done right. Won’t be, though.
I’m just hoping we don’t destroy humanity before the Singularity rolls in.
Pete Townshend used the phrase “theological bankruptcy” about the time “Who’s Next” came out which if you think about it, has the most quoted songs from his catalog.
“ethics, community and stewardship of both our planet and our culture”
Hollywood is going to have to step up. I don’t know how we change a school where Charlie is told time and time again that the best sex only happens to the richest tuna. Maybe it’s time to trade carbon credits for orgasms.
Pete Townshend used the phrase “theological bankruptcy” about the time “Who’s Next” came out which if you think about it, has the most quoted songs from his catalog.
“ethics, community and stewardship of both our planet and our culture”
Hollywood is going to have to step up. I don’t know how we change a school where Charlie is told time and time again that the best sex only happens to the richest tuna. Maybe it’s time to trade carbon credits for orgasms.
If your quote from Huber isn’t taken wildly out of context, the only conclusion you can draw is that the man knows nothing about either economics or ecology. Stop advertising his worthless book.
If your quote from Huber isn’t taken wildly out of context, the only conclusion you can draw is that the man knows nothing about either economics or ecology. Stop advertising his worthless book.
If your quote from Huber isn’t taken wildly out of context, the only conclusion you can draw is that the man knows nothing about either economics or ecology. Stop advertising his worthless book.
“The End of Work” by economist Jeremy Rifkin in about 1995, was ahead of its time.
Many of us would be better off if the pressure to work and produce were less intense.
After you have adequate food, a dependable supply of clean water, and protection against random violence, additional productivity becomes more and more consumerist and materialistic.
We need to learn to live simply but well. — Bernie
“The End of Work” by economist Jeremy Rifkin in about 1995, was ahead of its time.
Many of us would be better off if the pressure to work and produce were less intense.
After you have adequate food, a dependable supply of clean water, and protection against random violence, additional productivity becomes more and more consumerist and materialistic.
We need to learn to live simply but well. — Bernie
Huber’s a cluster-f**k fractal incarnate.
Lawyer + engineer?!? Those two designations tell you everything you need to know.
Lawyer: we can build word-fortresses to rationalize/justify anything.
Engineer: we can hack and build our way out of anything solve all problems anywhere through the “intelligent” application of technology.
Anything except the carrying capacity of our planetary ecosystem.
Huber’s a cluster-f**k fractal incarnate.
Lawyer + engineer?!? Those two designations tell you everything you need to know.
Lawyer: we can build word-fortresses to rationalize/justify anything.
Engineer: we can hack and build our way out of anything solve all problems anywhere through the “intelligent” application of technology.
Anything except the carrying capacity of our planetary ecosystem.
Well said, Jon, and completely right.
Many years ago, the electricity went out in my house. My family and I ended up having a fun time rummaging for flash lights and being forced to chat in the dark. No TV, no movies, no books. I was a little disappointed when the lights came back on.
I suspect the severe recession we are heading in may force people to have more dinners and home with friends and rediscover the pleasures in life that cost little or nothing. I also suspect that once the lights come back on, it may be hard to resist going back to our old habits.
Well said, Jon, and completely right.
Many years ago, the electricity went out in my house. My family and I ended up having a fun time rummaging for flash lights and being forced to chat in the dark. No TV, no movies, no books. I was a little disappointed when the lights came back on.
I suspect the severe recession we are heading in may force people to have more dinners and home with friends and rediscover the pleasures in life that cost little or nothing. I also suspect that once the lights come back on, it may be hard to resist going back to our old habits.
The problem isn’t simply cultural learning. It’s cultural memory. Our fathers and grandfathers lived on less because of the Depression. My Dad drove Crosleys and raised 11 children. It only took two generations to forget or forswear the lessons learned despite the documentation of the events.
As long as the cultural mavens serve the sales engine and the sales engine exists to ensure an elite is self-aggrandizing, the culture will conveniently forget and obediently consume. Why the frik are we allowing soccer moms afraid of the day their children might catch a cold to drive SUVs that could transport a band and its equipment while our trains rust on the tracks?
Nightmares do have power. The BBC reporter nailed it. The question is do we keep oscillating between the Candide future of permanent improvement and infinite growth and the the notion that only by heeding our fears and obliterating our enemies real and imagined can we sustain our lifestyle?
Or do we find the balancing point and can we figure out how to even out the weight of the butts on both sides of the seesaw?
I’d love to see the coast media mavens sponsor a week long conference where the best scientists and the top media moguls and stars sit and talk and plan a future where our media served our needs instead of our dark desires. When all the money is in young women having love affairs with vampires, something is seriously sick in the industry. Chappelle is right.
It’s Friday and there have been too many firefights today. Please pardon this rant.
The problem isn’t simply cultural learning. It’s cultural memory. Our fathers and grandfathers lived on less because of the Depression. My Dad drove Crosleys and raised 11 children. It only took two generations to forget or forswear the lessons learned despite the documentation of the events.
As long as the cultural mavens serve the sales engine and the sales engine exists to ensure an elite is self-aggrandizing, the culture will conveniently forget and obediently consume. Why the frik are we allowing soccer moms afraid of the day their children might catch a cold to drive SUVs that could transport a band and its equipment while our trains rust on the tracks?
Nightmares do have power. The BBC reporter nailed it. The question is do we keep oscillating between the Candide future of permanent improvement and infinite growth and the the notion that only by heeding our fears and obliterating our enemies real and imagined can we sustain our lifestyle?
Or do we find the balancing point and can we figure out how to even out the weight of the butts on both sides of the seesaw?
I’d love to see the coast media mavens sponsor a week long conference where the best scientists and the top media moguls and stars sit and talk and plan a future where our media served our needs instead of our dark desires. When all the money is in young women having love affairs with vampires, something is seriously sick in the industry. Chappelle is right.
It’s Friday and there have been too many firefights today. Please pardon this rant.
The problem isn’t simply cultural learning. It’s cultural memory. Our fathers and grandfathers lived on less because of the Depression. My Dad drove Crosleys and raised 11 children. It only took two generations to forget or forswear the lessons learned despite the documentation of the events.
As long as the cultural mavens serve the sales engine and the sales engine exists to ensure an elite is self-aggrandizing, the culture will conveniently forget and obediently consume. Why the frik are we allowing soccer moms afraid of the day their children might catch a cold to drive SUVs that could transport a band and its equipment while our trains rust on the tracks?
Nightmares do have power. The BBC reporter nailed it. The question is do we keep oscillating between the Candide future of permanent improvement and infinite growth and the the notion that only by heeding our fears and obliterating our enemies real and imagined can we sustain our lifestyle?
Or do we find the balancing point and can we figure out how to even out the weight of the butts on both sides of the seesaw?
I’d love to see the coast media mavens sponsor a week long conference where the best scientists and the top media moguls and stars sit and talk and plan a future where our media served our needs instead of our dark desires. When all the money is in young women having love affairs with vampires, something is seriously sick in the industry. Chappelle is right.
It’s Friday and there have been too many firefights today. Please pardon this rant.
LOL @ Billy Bob.
Maryland said “Many of us would be better off if the pressure to work and produce were less intense.” Yeah, well, what’s applying the pressure is the machine that’s convincing you that you need to make more money to buy more stuff you don’t need. It’s not a matter of learning to live more simply…it’s easy to learn to live without stuff when it gets taken away. It’s a matter of not giving in to the pressure. If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? All mine bought SUVs and send their kids to soccer. I drive a small station wagon and let mine run loose in the neighborhood (flower bed, what flower bed?). Feel free to attack my lack of parenting skills rather than my argument. I’m used to it.
LOL @ Billy Bob.
Maryland said “Many of us would be better off if the pressure to work and produce were less intense.” Yeah, well, what’s applying the pressure is the machine that’s convincing you that you need to make more money to buy more stuff you don’t need. It’s not a matter of learning to live more simply…it’s easy to learn to live without stuff when it gets taken away. It’s a matter of not giving in to the pressure. If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? All mine bought SUVs and send their kids to soccer. I drive a small station wagon and let mine run loose in the neighborhood (flower bed, what flower bed?). Feel free to attack my lack of parenting skills rather than my argument. I’m used to it.
LOL @ Billy Bob.
Maryland said “Many of us would be better off if the pressure to work and produce were less intense.” Yeah, well, what’s applying the pressure is the machine that’s convincing you that you need to make more money to buy more stuff you don’t need. It’s not a matter of learning to live more simply…it’s easy to learn to live without stuff when it gets taken away. It’s a matter of not giving in to the pressure. If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? All mine bought SUVs and send their kids to soccer. I drive a small station wagon and let mine run loose in the neighborhood (flower bed, what flower bed?). Feel free to attack my lack of parenting skills rather than my argument. I’m used to it.
Attempting to realign societal/cultural thinking is something that pops up every now and again and frankly, while I agree completely with “less is more” “simplify” and all that, I don’t know exactly what it would take to pull people away from consumption driven culture.
I will grant you, economic tightening will help a bit, but you still have status symbol thinking in place. People will still make judgments on such things as the sort of car you drive, the type of home you live in and the kind of shoes you wear (just to be self confessional – in the summer, flipflops – in the winter, hiking or Kletter boots). While Madison Avenue may have been the LARGE push towards that type of thinking, it’s so ingrained into our society, I’m not exactly sure how you dislodge it.
Part of my thought process here, when you talk about societies based on compassion, caring and trust, requires smaller societies. Individuals in large population centers may be compassionate and caring, but collectively, they tend not to be, unless faced with a catastrophe; whereas smaller communities, where most people know most of the people have a tendency to act in a collective manner when addressing issues of need or help.
Trust is a hard thing to come by in dense urban environments. Couple that with the snap judgment of surface appearance and you have a very hard nut to crack.
The single ray of sunshine I have is that September 10th pretty much nailed the coffin closed of detached irony.
So, what sort of suggestions do people have for turning things around collectively?
Attempting to realign societal/cultural thinking is something that pops up every now and again and frankly, while I agree completely with “less is more” “simplify” and all that, I don’t know exactly what it would take to pull people away from consumption driven culture.
I will grant you, economic tightening will help a bit, but you still have status symbol thinking in place. People will still make judgments on such things as the sort of car you drive, the type of home you live in and the kind of shoes you wear (just to be self confessional – in the summer, flipflops – in the winter, hiking or Kletter boots). While Madison Avenue may have been the LARGE push towards that type of thinking, it’s so ingrained into our society, I’m not exactly sure how you dislodge it.
Part of my thought process here, when you talk about societies based on compassion, caring and trust, requires smaller societies. Individuals in large population centers may be compassionate and caring, but collectively, they tend not to be, unless faced with a catastrophe; whereas smaller communities, where most people know most of the people have a tendency to act in a collective manner when addressing issues of need or help.
Trust is a hard thing to come by in dense urban environments. Couple that with the snap judgment of surface appearance and you have a very hard nut to crack.
The single ray of sunshine I have is that September 10th pretty much nailed the coffin closed of detached irony.
So, what sort of suggestions do people have for turning things around collectively?
Attempting to realign societal/cultural thinking is something that pops up every now and again and frankly, while I agree completely with “less is more” “simplify” and all that, I don’t know exactly what it would take to pull people away from consumption driven culture.
I will grant you, economic tightening will help a bit, but you still have status symbol thinking in place. People will still make judgments on such things as the sort of car you drive, the type of home you live in and the kind of shoes you wear (just to be self confessional – in the summer, flipflops – in the winter, hiking or Kletter boots). While Madison Avenue may have been the LARGE push towards that type of thinking, it’s so ingrained into our society, I’m not exactly sure how you dislodge it.
Part of my thought process here, when you talk about societies based on compassion, caring and trust, requires smaller societies. Individuals in large population centers may be compassionate and caring, but collectively, they tend not to be, unless faced with a catastrophe; whereas smaller communities, where most people know most of the people have a tendency to act in a collective manner when addressing issues of need or help.
Trust is a hard thing to come by in dense urban environments. Couple that with the snap judgment of surface appearance and you have a very hard nut to crack.
The single ray of sunshine I have is that September 10th pretty much nailed the coffin closed of detached irony.
So, what sort of suggestions do people have for turning things around collectively?
I’m not sure if there is a collective answer. The only answer I can see is, well Panglossian (as long as Len is bringing Candide to the discussion). Tend your own garden.
Our culture, and not just marketing culture, but that WASP business about God favoring those who prosper, so if you look poor, it must be because God isn’t favoring you is a huge part of the problem. There’s nothing inherently wrong with capitalism and a market-based society and affluence, but as Len pointed out, we have forgotten or forsworn lessons learned during the Great Depression and other times of hardship. Sorry to go all Randian on you all (dang, I will now stop brain dumping literary references) but I think its up to individuals (and then families and then, hopefully, it can radiate outward) to stand up to the cultural pressure to grow and spend without limit. Just because someone is selling doesn’t mean you have to buy. And just because people will make judgments based on what you buy (or choose not to) doesn’t mean you have to buy into their value system.
I’m not sure if there is a collective answer. The only answer I can see is, well Panglossian (as long as Len is bringing Candide to the discussion). Tend your own garden.
Our culture, and not just marketing culture, but that WASP business about God favoring those who prosper, so if you look poor, it must be because God isn’t favoring you is a huge part of the problem. There’s nothing inherently wrong with capitalism and a market-based society and affluence, but as Len pointed out, we have forgotten or forsworn lessons learned during the Great Depression and other times of hardship. Sorry to go all Randian on you all (dang, I will now stop brain dumping literary references) but I think its up to individuals (and then families and then, hopefully, it can radiate outward) to stand up to the cultural pressure to grow and spend without limit. Just because someone is selling doesn’t mean you have to buy. And just because people will make judgments based on what you buy (or choose not to) doesn’t mean you have to buy into their value system.
Tom Wilmot- I agree. Smaller societies is the key. I’ve been calling it The New Federalism. But that doesn’t mean the housing association on 86th and West End Ave, doesn’t constitute a society. Small groups can thrive in the big city.
Tom Wilmot- I agree. Smaller societies is the key. I’ve been calling it The New Federalism. But that doesn’t mean the housing association on 86th and West End Ave, doesn’t constitute a society. Small groups can thrive in the big city.
This is all well and good, but thank goodness we have had a CEO president these last eight years.
Can you imagine how bad it could have been if we had say, an actress?!?
Right?
This is all well and good, but thank goodness we have had a CEO president these last eight years.
Can you imagine how bad it could have been if we had say, an actress?!?
Right?
This is all well and good, but thank goodness we have had a CEO president these last eight years.
Can you imagine how bad it could have been if we had say, an actress?!?
Right?
A New Federalism would simply be the original small fed ideas of 1787, more state’s rights and less fed….I hate the fed.
Political will……..ha, we haven’t had any of that since Jefferson.
A New Federalism would simply be the original small fed ideas of 1787, more state’s rights and less fed….I hate the fed.
Political will……..ha, we haven’t had any of that since Jefferson.
A New Federalism would simply be the original small fed ideas of 1787, more state’s rights and less fed….I hate the fed.
Political will……..ha, we haven’t had any of that since Jefferson.
I think (and maybe it’s just hope) I see a glimmer of light at the end of the greed- and growth-driven consumerist tunnel we have been following for the past 60 years or so. We have forced our way along that tunnel, brandishing our weapons and economic might regardless of the consequences to our neighbors or our planet.
There is evidence, in the newspapers and on the web, that some of us, at least, are turning away from the forlorn hope that more stuff will make us happier and ensure our immortality. I see Obama’s sound victory in the Presidential race as more than just a triumph of good vibes over eight years (really more like 50 years) of floundering and grasping incompetence. I see people, in the millions, who have become unsettled and desperate for a new paradigm of living responsibly and in a healthy relationship with our only planet. Maybe Obama’s unlikely victory (who’d a thought it a year ago?) is a signal that the old order is dying and the new order does not involve SUVs and empire. The world created by our parents in the post-WWII era, served us well for a few decades as the United States stood astride a world nearly destroyed by evil. But by the mid-60s it became clear that things were beginning to fall apart. The anti-Vietnam war movement, the Civil Rights movement, even the Berkeley Free Speech movement were all signals that things had to change, that America had to lead from a position of moral authority, not just superior weapons. The intervening years, from Johnson to Bushco II have just marked a rear-guard battle of the old order in retreat against the inevitable forces of the future, a future that does not necessarily need us.
Other parts of the world have already begun to embrace that future and accept that the only way to approach it is to join hands and minds, to cooperate and deal globally with our problems and challenges. Too many times, in my memory, it has been the US that has stood against the tide, supporting brutal military dictators and rapacious pharmaceutical companies, for example, while opposing or ignoring international efforts to deal with climate change, ethnic cleansing, and hunger. If we change, if we do accept the challenge of leading in a new way, a way that might well entail sacrifice and cooperation even with those who do not love us as a nation, we may yet secure our position as a people leading humanity into a new era. If we reject that challenge, strive only to get back to where we were before the balloon burst, then there is little hope for us beyond bankrupting ourselves economically and morally, in a few last spasms of military force employed to secure enough energy and resources to keep the toys flowing for a few more years. But as I said above, I think, I hope, that I see signs of the changing attitudes we so desperately need.
Jon’s blog, and the thoughtful comments that usually follow his lead, give me hope, as much as anything else I see, that there are people who think about these issues and many of whom are engaged and committed to seeing this through. Jon’s idea of a new Federalism is one avenue of hope, but we should never assume for one second that the way will be easy, or even clearly seen. And there are so very many forces with vested interests in the past that every step into the future will be a struggle, but one hopefully worth the effort. Probably like other readers here, I have grandchildren whose futures I am obligated to secure for the near- and mid-term. I’ll do what I need to to give them the opportunities and resources they will require to create their own futures.
I think (and maybe it’s just hope) I see a glimmer of light at the end of the greed- and growth-driven consumerist tunnel we have been following for the past 60 years or so. We have forced our way along that tunnel, brandishing our weapons and economic might regardless of the consequences to our neighbors or our planet.
There is evidence, in the newspapers and on the web, that some of us, at least, are turning away from the forlorn hope that more stuff will make us happier and ensure our immortality. I see Obama’s sound victory in the Presidential race as more than just a triumph of good vibes over eight years (really more like 50 years) of floundering and grasping incompetence. I see people, in the millions, who have become unsettled and desperate for a new paradigm of living responsibly and in a healthy relationship with our only planet. Maybe Obama’s unlikely victory (who’d a thought it a year ago?) is a signal that the old order is dying and the new order does not involve SUVs and empire. The world created by our parents in the post-WWII era, served us well for a few decades as the United States stood astride a world nearly destroyed by evil. But by the mid-60s it became clear that things were beginning to fall apart. The anti-Vietnam war movement, the Civil Rights movement, even the Berkeley Free Speech movement were all signals that things had to change, that America had to lead from a position of moral authority, not just superior weapons. The intervening years, from Johnson to Bushco II have just marked a rear-guard battle of the old order in retreat against the inevitable forces of the future, a future that does not necessarily need us.
Other parts of the world have already begun to embrace that future and accept that the only way to approach it is to join hands and minds, to cooperate and deal globally with our problems and challenges. Too many times, in my memory, it has been the US that has stood against the tide, supporting brutal military dictators and rapacious pharmaceutical companies, for example, while opposing or ignoring international efforts to deal with climate change, ethnic cleansing, and hunger. If we change, if we do accept the challenge of leading in a new way, a way that might well entail sacrifice and cooperation even with those who do not love us as a nation, we may yet secure our position as a people leading humanity into a new era. If we reject that challenge, strive only to get back to where we were before the balloon burst, then there is little hope for us beyond bankrupting ourselves economically and morally, in a few last spasms of military force employed to secure enough energy and resources to keep the toys flowing for a few more years. But as I said above, I think, I hope, that I see signs of the changing attitudes we so desperately need.
Jon’s blog, and the thoughtful comments that usually follow his lead, give me hope, as much as anything else I see, that there are people who think about these issues and many of whom are engaged and committed to seeing this through. Jon’s idea of a new Federalism is one avenue of hope, but we should never assume for one second that the way will be easy, or even clearly seen. And there are so very many forces with vested interests in the past that every step into the future will be a struggle, but one hopefully worth the effort. Probably like other readers here, I have grandchildren whose futures I am obligated to secure for the near- and mid-term. I’ll do what I need to to give them the opportunities and resources they will require to create their own futures.
I think (and maybe it’s just hope) I see a glimmer of light at the end of the greed- and growth-driven consumerist tunnel we have been following for the past 60 years or so. We have forced our way along that tunnel, brandishing our weapons and economic might regardless of the consequences to our neighbors or our planet.
There is evidence, in the newspapers and on the web, that some of us, at least, are turning away from the forlorn hope that more stuff will make us happier and ensure our immortality. I see Obama’s sound victory in the Presidential race as more than just a triumph of good vibes over eight years (really more like 50 years) of floundering and grasping incompetence. I see people, in the millions, who have become unsettled and desperate for a new paradigm of living responsibly and in a healthy relationship with our only planet. Maybe Obama’s unlikely victory (who’d a thought it a year ago?) is a signal that the old order is dying and the new order does not involve SUVs and empire. The world created by our parents in the post-WWII era, served us well for a few decades as the United States stood astride a world nearly destroyed by evil. But by the mid-60s it became clear that things were beginning to fall apart. The anti-Vietnam war movement, the Civil Rights movement, even the Berkeley Free Speech movement were all signals that things had to change, that America had to lead from a position of moral authority, not just superior weapons. The intervening years, from Johnson to Bushco II have just marked a rear-guard battle of the old order in retreat against the inevitable forces of the future, a future that does not necessarily need us.
Other parts of the world have already begun to embrace that future and accept that the only way to approach it is to join hands and minds, to cooperate and deal globally with our problems and challenges. Too many times, in my memory, it has been the US that has stood against the tide, supporting brutal military dictators and rapacious pharmaceutical companies, for example, while opposing or ignoring international efforts to deal with climate change, ethnic cleansing, and hunger. If we change, if we do accept the challenge of leading in a new way, a way that might well entail sacrifice and cooperation even with those who do not love us as a nation, we may yet secure our position as a people leading humanity into a new era. If we reject that challenge, strive only to get back to where we were before the balloon burst, then there is little hope for us beyond bankrupting ourselves economically and morally, in a few last spasms of military force employed to secure enough energy and resources to keep the toys flowing for a few more years. But as I said above, I think, I hope, that I see signs of the changing attitudes we so desperately need.
Jon’s blog, and the thoughtful comments that usually follow his lead, give me hope, as much as anything else I see, that there are people who think about these issues and many of whom are engaged and committed to seeing this through. Jon’s idea of a new Federalism is one avenue of hope, but we should never assume for one second that the way will be easy, or even clearly seen. And there are so very many forces with vested interests in the past that every step into the future will be a struggle, but one hopefully worth the effort. Probably like other readers here, I have grandchildren whose futures I am obligated to secure for the near- and mid-term. I’ll do what I need to to give them the opportunities and resources they will require to create their own futures.
My goodness, Jonathan Taplin,
That is one deadly-efficient little essay, yours.
Yes, I for one confess: That is indeed our Chicago [Pro-] Confession. We do make a mere tool of Homo Economicus, Us. But then so do you all do. Especially you Southern California Systems Engineers.
So why don’t we agree, going forward with President Barack, to knock it off, and do better?
My goodness, Jonathan Taplin,
That is one deadly-efficient little essay, yours.
Yes, I for one confess: That is indeed our Chicago [Pro-] Confession. We do make a mere tool of Homo Economicus, Us. But then so do you all do. Especially you Southern California Systems Engineers.
So why don’t we agree, going forward with President Barack, to knock it off, and do better?
My goodness, Jonathan Taplin,
That is one deadly-efficient little essay, yours.
Yes, I for one confess: That is indeed our Chicago [Pro-] Confession. We do make a mere tool of Homo Economicus, Us. But then so do you all do. Especially you Southern California Systems Engineers.
So why don’t we agree, going forward with President Barack, to knock it off, and do better?
There are politics and there are communities. Maybe we think one is the other when it isn’t.
A secret of the big city or small city is the church. Put the metaphysics of it aside for a second and look at the behavior: socially contract niceness. Caring with a Book Of Instructions and a built in band.
It can work in other directions too, but at least where I live, raising kids and working, the church experience is a high quality way to have community and a set of values dedicated to others.
It isn’t necessary. But it is common.
Anything that gives people hope and faith such that they practice a healthy self-discipline and care for their neighbor is good unless it also includes an unhealthy does of Not Neighbor.
I don’t know, Wilmott, I think it easier to turn the culture than we want to admit. Entertainment does it all the time. Spin masters do it all the time. The study of semiotics and the science of behavioral modification lets us do it with numbers and symbols. Church and ritual do it all the time. If it was a band, I’d say we need fresh material the reevaluates the rewards.
Anyway, the artists as a whole have to wake up to it. We need the Beatles archetype, the cultural event that sparks a cascade of related symbols engendering systems of belief and practice.
There are politics and there are communities. Maybe we think one is the other when it isn’t.
A secret of the big city or small city is the church. Put the metaphysics of it aside for a second and look at the behavior: socially contract niceness. Caring with a Book Of Instructions and a built in band.
It can work in other directions too, but at least where I live, raising kids and working, the church experience is a high quality way to have community and a set of values dedicated to others.
It isn’t necessary. But it is common.
Anything that gives people hope and faith such that they practice a healthy self-discipline and care for their neighbor is good unless it also includes an unhealthy does of Not Neighbor.
I don’t know, Wilmott, I think it easier to turn the culture than we want to admit. Entertainment does it all the time. Spin masters do it all the time. The study of semiotics and the science of behavioral modification lets us do it with numbers and symbols. Church and ritual do it all the time. If it was a band, I’d say we need fresh material the reevaluates the rewards.
Anyway, the artists as a whole have to wake up to it. We need the Beatles archetype, the cultural event that sparks a cascade of related symbols engendering systems of belief and practice.
There are politics and there are communities. Maybe we think one is the other when it isn’t.
A secret of the big city or small city is the church. Put the metaphysics of it aside for a second and look at the behavior: socially contract niceness. Caring with a Book Of Instructions and a built in band.
It can work in other directions too, but at least where I live, raising kids and working, the church experience is a high quality way to have community and a set of values dedicated to others.
It isn’t necessary. But it is common.
Anything that gives people hope and faith such that they practice a healthy self-discipline and care for their neighbor is good unless it also includes an unhealthy does of Not Neighbor.
I don’t know, Wilmott, I think it easier to turn the culture than we want to admit. Entertainment does it all the time. Spin masters do it all the time. The study of semiotics and the science of behavioral modification lets us do it with numbers and symbols. Church and ritual do it all the time. If it was a band, I’d say we need fresh material the reevaluates the rewards.
Anyway, the artists as a whole have to wake up to it. We need the Beatles archetype, the cultural event that sparks a cascade of related symbols engendering systems of belief and practice.
Common, yes, but not Jon’s Commons. In other words, perhaps, “common”, as my grandmother used to say, “as dirt”.
Common, yes, but not Jon’s Commons. In other words, perhaps, “common”, as my grandmother used to say, “as dirt”.
Common, yes, but not Jon’s Commons. In other words, perhaps, “common”, as my grandmother used to say, “as dirt”.
len,
Yes, on the church-in-community. So let’s please consider the word, community. The word “communications”. The word “communio”, in all its con-spiratorial implications…
g
len,
Yes, on the church-in-community. So let’s please consider the word, community. The word “communications”. The word “communio”, in all its con-spiratorial implications…
g
len,
Yes, on the church-in-community. So let’s please consider the word, community. The word “communications”. The word “communio”, in all its con-spiratorial implications…
g
This secular progressive movement won’t allow anything decent like spirituality and community to make a comeback….it’s all about anarchy. It’s all about narcissism and get away with whatever you can. Granted it’s the wrong direction, but we’ve been wrong for years.
This secular progressive movement won’t allow anything decent like spirituality and community to make a comeback….it’s all about anarchy. It’s all about narcissism and get away with whatever you can. Granted it’s the wrong direction, but we’ve been wrong for years.
This secular progressive movement won’t allow anything decent like spirituality and community to make a comeback….it’s all about anarchy. It’s all about narcissism and get away with whatever you can. Granted it’s the wrong direction, but we’ve been wrong for years.
Davaudian-Don’t be so sure. Get out your old Whole Earth Catalog. It was pretty secular, but it was all about community.
Davaudian-Don’t be so sure. Get out your old Whole Earth Catalog. It was pretty secular, but it was all about community.
Oh, so it’s a ’60′s thing….sprouts and veggies….hey, this is gonna be fun!!
Oh, so it’s a ’60′s thing….sprouts and veggies….hey, this is gonna be fun!!
Or a ’00′s thing…loaves and fishes.
Or a ’00′s thing…loaves and fishes.
Davudian,
“the secular progressive community”…
you love to swim with sharks a bit don’t you; i.e. there are a few of those on this blog if ya haven’t noticed. And we, along with our spiritual progressive brother’s and sisters are likely to think that your assumptions are a wee, wee, bit narrow.
The truth is a lot of people are going to find they do need to form skill collectives where they trade specific skills (e.g. I would fix Amber’s dead hard drive with the cheapest pull I can find, in return she applies her fabric skills to my sweater needs, while …. It’s not a hippy commune, it’s called co-op. Large localized families and even neighborhoods used to provide a lot of this off market economy of basics. In the highly mobile west it’s going to be communities of friends who will do it. It, more than the state, is how the Cubans have survived the embargo all these years. The lads behind the various Ponzie schemes that led to the depth of the collapsed market were all about “anarchy and narcism” but the folks they screwed? Not so much.
Already I’ve started our skills bank as a way to formally rope in a few of our single parent friends who are going to have the worst time (no Citation CJ4 to allow them to fly to Washington for their bailouts). Skills banks, co-0ps, families, communities will find mutual benefit in these, while the ultimate market correction the greed heads assured us would fix things plays out.
Davudian,
“the secular progressive community”…
you love to swim with sharks a bit don’t you; i.e. there are a few of those on this blog if ya haven’t noticed. And we, along with our spiritual progressive brother’s and sisters are likely to think that your assumptions are a wee, wee, bit narrow.
The truth is a lot of people are going to find they do need to form skill collectives where they trade specific skills (e.g. I would fix Amber’s dead hard drive with the cheapest pull I can find, in return she applies her fabric skills to my sweater needs, while …. It’s not a hippy commune, it’s called co-op. Large localized families and even neighborhoods used to provide a lot of this off market economy of basics. In the highly mobile west it’s going to be communities of friends who will do it. It, more than the state, is how the Cubans have survived the embargo all these years. The lads behind the various Ponzie schemes that led to the depth of the collapsed market were all about “anarchy and narcism” but the folks they screwed? Not so much.
Already I’ve started our skills bank as a way to formally rope in a few of our single parent friends who are going to have the worst time (no Citation CJ4 to allow them to fly to Washington for their bailouts). Skills banks, co-0ps, families, communities will find mutual benefit in these, while the ultimate market correction the greed heads assured us would fix things plays out.
Davudian,
“the secular progressive community”…
you love to swim with sharks a bit don’t you; i.e. there are a few of those on this blog if ya haven’t noticed. And we, along with our spiritual progressive brother’s and sisters are likely to think that your assumptions are a wee, wee, bit narrow.
The truth is a lot of people are going to find they do need to form skill collectives where they trade specific skills (e.g. I would fix Amber’s dead hard drive with the cheapest pull I can find, in return she applies her fabric skills to my sweater needs, while …. It’s not a hippy commune, it’s called co-op. Large localized families and even neighborhoods used to provide a lot of this off market economy of basics. In the highly mobile west it’s going to be communities of friends who will do it. It, more than the state, is how the Cubans have survived the embargo all these years. The lads behind the various Ponzie schemes that led to the depth of the collapsed market were all about “anarchy and narcism” but the folks they screwed? Not so much.
Already I’ve started our skills bank as a way to formally rope in a few of our single parent friends who are going to have the worst time (no Citation CJ4 to allow them to fly to Washington for their bailouts). Skills banks, co-0ps, families, communities will find mutual benefit in these, while the ultimate market correction the greed heads assured us would fix things plays out.
And whatever the reason for community, bartering skills is a key reason for continuity. Church communities are all about trading time, skills, and other things. Whatever gives hope, faith and a decent outcome, these are good reasons to hold together.
Communities need records keeping, communications and training. Angie’s List, Craigs List, and even those volunteer lists kept by the public safety agencies are a means so sustain and grow communities. They aren’t hard to build and all you need is an ISP that hosts a database. Facebook can make a good substitute and there are others.
And whatever the reason for community, bartering skills is a key reason for continuity. Church communities are all about trading time, skills, and other things. Whatever gives hope, faith and a decent outcome, these are good reasons to hold together.
Communities need records keeping, communications and training. Angie’s List, Craigs List, and even those volunteer lists kept by the public safety agencies are a means so sustain and grow communities. They aren’t hard to build and all you need is an ISP that hosts a database. Facebook can make a good substitute and there are others.
Ken:
For a number of folks, such as myself, without family but with a large circle of friends, the whole co-op system is a real and relevant entity. To an extent, it’s a micro-community, wherein we rely on each other’s skills to lower the cost of living as well as lessening the dependence each of us might have on “professionals”. And skill sets, while important, aren’t always as necessary as another pair of hands on a job.
There’s no hippie-dippiness attached to it either, it’s merely a recognition that life has changed radically in the post WWII years; core family groups just aren’t very prevalent; tight knit communities are few and far between and the government entities that have been created to plug these holes in the social fabric just don’t work very well.
Now, this sort of brings us back to the beginning of the discussion – what have you lost faith in and what (if anything) do you still have faith in? If you look at the DIY movement, the freeconomics movement, co-op and barter systems, there is an inherent faith in “fair exchange” involved. To an extent, this revolves around a passé notion of “my word is my bond”, integrity, etc., which fell out of favor bout the time that Gordon Gecko because a role model.
Advancing Jon’s “New Federalism”-slash-grassroots thinking once again; it seems to be that our future’s best bet is build from the bottom up. Pragmatism tends to make philosophy less relevant in the face of need, so, while there may be certain folks so attached to free market capitalism that they’re not willing to participate in micro-community building that evolves into “wards” to oversee intra-community issues, which in turn are part of the municipality, if you have enough micro-communities that they can become an effective political bloc, partisanship; while it will struggle to exist, becomes a roadblock to growth.
As with any discussion, rather than actual application, there will undoubtedly be quite a few “Yah, but…” responses – the thing is, why not take this thread and use it to parse out the yah-buts and see if there aren’t workarounds to be found?
I feel, and I think a number of folks across the country feel as though they’re on the edge of a sea change, where the old ineffective constructs are set aside and new avenues are explored in hopes that we can build towards a more sustainable future for ourselves and a couple generations down the line.
Whaddaya all think?
Ken:
For a number of folks, such as myself, without family but with a large circle of friends, the whole co-op system is a real and relevant entity. To an extent, it’s a micro-community, wherein we rely on each other’s skills to lower the cost of living as well as lessening the dependence each of us might have on “professionals”. And skill sets, while important, aren’t always as necessary as another pair of hands on a job.
There’s no hippie-dippiness attached to it either, it’s merely a recognition that life has changed radically in the post WWII years; core family groups just aren’t very prevalent; tight knit communities are few and far between and the government entities that have been created to plug these holes in the social fabric just don’t work very well.
Now, this sort of brings us back to the beginning of the discussion – what have you lost faith in and what (if anything) do you still have faith in? If you look at the DIY movement, the freeconomics movement, co-op and barter systems, there is an inherent faith in “fair exchange” involved. To an extent, this revolves around a passé notion of “my word is my bond”, integrity, etc., which fell out of favor bout the time that Gordon Gecko because a role model.
Advancing Jon’s “New Federalism”-slash-grassroots thinking once again; it seems to be that our future’s best bet is build from the bottom up. Pragmatism tends to make philosophy less relevant in the face of need, so, while there may be certain folks so attached to free market capitalism that they’re not willing to participate in micro-community building that evolves into “wards” to oversee intra-community issues, which in turn are part of the municipality, if you have enough micro-communities that they can become an effective political bloc, partisanship; while it will struggle to exist, becomes a roadblock to growth.
As with any discussion, rather than actual application, there will undoubtedly be quite a few “Yah, but…” responses – the thing is, why not take this thread and use it to parse out the yah-buts and see if there aren’t workarounds to be found?
I feel, and I think a number of folks across the country feel as though they’re on the edge of a sea change, where the old ineffective constructs are set aside and new avenues are explored in hopes that we can build towards a more sustainable future for ourselves and a couple generations down the line.
Whaddaya all think?
Ken:
For a number of folks, such as myself, without family but with a large circle of friends, the whole co-op system is a real and relevant entity. To an extent, it’s a micro-community, wherein we rely on each other’s skills to lower the cost of living as well as lessening the dependence each of us might have on “professionals”. And skill sets, while important, aren’t always as necessary as another pair of hands on a job.
There’s no hippie-dippiness attached to it either, it’s merely a recognition that life has changed radically in the post WWII years; core family groups just aren’t very prevalent; tight knit communities are few and far between and the government entities that have been created to plug these holes in the social fabric just don’t work very well.
Now, this sort of brings us back to the beginning of the discussion – what have you lost faith in and what (if anything) do you still have faith in? If you look at the DIY movement, the freeconomics movement, co-op and barter systems, there is an inherent faith in “fair exchange” involved. To an extent, this revolves around a passé notion of “my word is my bond”, integrity, etc., which fell out of favor bout the time that Gordon Gecko because a role model.
Advancing Jon’s “New Federalism”-slash-grassroots thinking once again; it seems to be that our future’s best bet is build from the bottom up. Pragmatism tends to make philosophy less relevant in the face of need, so, while there may be certain folks so attached to free market capitalism that they’re not willing to participate in micro-community building that evolves into “wards” to oversee intra-community issues, which in turn are part of the municipality, if you have enough micro-communities that they can become an effective political bloc, partisanship; while it will struggle to exist, becomes a roadblock to growth.
As with any discussion, rather than actual application, there will undoubtedly be quite a few “Yah, but…” responses – the thing is, why not take this thread and use it to parse out the yah-buts and see if there aren’t workarounds to be found?
I feel, and I think a number of folks across the country feel as though they’re on the edge of a sea change, where the old ineffective constructs are set aside and new avenues are explored in hopes that we can build towards a more sustainable future for ourselves and a couple generations down the line.
Whaddaya all think?
I think the hippies were right. Bastards.
I hate to say it, but life was a lot more fun and a lot less expensive in 1968 than it is now. And I mean less expensive in real terms…how much of a percentage of income it took to pay for basics like rent, groceries, and a little smoke.
Rick:
Take a minute and think what you did for fun in 1968 as well. To a large extent, fun consisted of DOING things, rather than paying large sums of money to
A) Watch other people doing things for your entertainment
B) Have people do things for you.
I can recall it cost about $6 to throw together a huge pot of spaghetti and a horrible jug of chianti. You could feed a lot of folks for that and have a lot of laughs.
I hate to say it, but I was born in 1968. And Tom has a point. About six months ago, before all the financial stuff started to hit the fan, I started noticing a dichotomy in the fiber arts community (knitters, crocheters, weavers, spinnners, etc.). There’s a side that seems to be predominantly about consumption: subscribing to magazines, buying books, taking classes, buying and storing insane amounts of fiber and tools. And there’s a side that seems more about the ‘doing’. The ‘doers’ still buy plenty of stuff, but tend to be more selective and, well, slower about buying than the purchasers. For the doers, the pleasure is in the doing…the pleasure the finished product provides is a bonus (sound familiar Rick?). For the purchasers its the old ‘who dies with the most fiber wins’ philosophy. I’m sure you all know which camp I’m in (I find the other side competitive and kind of scary)…and let me tell you twenty bucks worth of sock yarn is one helluvan entertainment bargain (someone ends up with a really nice pair of sock and I get hours of amusement).
I have some other thoughts on the co-op/circle of friends thing, but I’ll see what some of the rest of you have to say about that first (no sense re-inventing the wheel).
That’s the microcosm Amber, in a nut shell. If you are driven by consuming, well life will be a little “intolerable” until you adapt.
If you just like to do and share things, well, it’s going to be v. v. different but survivable.
We need a massive paradigm shift that includes abolishing the notion that shopping is a form of recreation rather than a necessity. Seriously, I’ve seen and heard people (mostly women) list ‘shopping’ as a ‘favorite hobby’. That, people, is a problem.
Another problem (yeah, I’ll just list problems and leave the solutions to the rest of you brainiacs…at least for now) is how ‘industries’ are developing around hobbies and other everyday activities. You used to just be able to get married…now there’s a whole ‘bridal industry’ convincing people that unless the wedding is suitable for the only daughter of a Mafia don, it’s not worth having.
In a past life (here goes another blow to my street cred…the age thing was the first) I taught aerobics professionally. I loved the exercise part. I loved helping people and communicating with my students. I hated the ‘fitness industry’: buy clothes, buy gym memberships, buy supplements, buy bottled water (no, not that brand, the other brand), buy training classes, buy CDs and tapes for your class. It was insane and it only got worse after I left the field. Ever notice that plain old exercise (stuff that only requires shoes) isn’t good enough anymore? You need a step. Then you need pilates stuff. Then it’s tae-bo DVDs. Take a freakin’ walk people. Just get off your arse. That’s really all it takes. All that other stuff is just frosting…if you get bored it’s great, but it sure as hell isn’t necessary to your health.
OK, I’m done ranting, but the examples are endless (cosmetics, baby/kid gear, etc.). The ones I’m giving are just the ones with which I’m most familiar. That’s why earlier I said I think any effort is going to have to start with the individual…individuals are going to have to stop buying what’s being sold just because it’s being sold. I’m not against the selling itself…after all, we’re not communists.
I also think Len has a point about the role of the church in fostering self-discipline and a more moderate life style. I guess there are secular organizations with the same purpose too, but the church allows the discussion to be framed in terms of right and wrong and there is a moral absolute that acts as the compass with which right and wrong can be determined. Approaching the issue from a purely secular point-of-view it is more difficult, if not impossible, to say what is right and wrong (moral relativism and utilitarianism are especially unhelpful).
Ken, I’m a good swimmer. Some of what I hear is just so old fashioned….not a bad thing but I don’t think living in the past is the actual fix for any of our problems and it’s certainly not progressive nor is it the change that was promised. A new WPA and a new ’60′s peace movement or maybe a race to the moon is great nostalgia, but I don’t think it solves much. As far as Cuba, one in four work for Fidel and if you get frisky, your ration is pulled. I’m here in Hollywood and there’s no sense of community anywhere other than the gangs.
Hey, Jon? On your recommendation to Davaudian in re The Whole Earth Catalog, Mr. Brand seems to manage to do nothing BUT cool things, but a couple of my more recent faves are: the brilliant things he gleans from old shipping containers, such as one might find scattered and tagged around the Port of Los Angeles; and his book of about a dozen years ago, “How Buildings Learn: What Becomes of Them after They’re Built”.
Wow, man. Wow. How it is that some of you guys get born with the Futurist Gene, and some of us don’t get so lucky, I’ll never ever figure.
Well, I’m one of the secular progressives here, I guess. I’m not part of a faith-based organization…it’s just not for me.
I’m also a part of the hands-on, doing it community, and I teach what I know by both writing for magazines and teaching both vocational and avocational courses in my craft. Yes, back in ’68 we entertained ourselves by hanging out and playing music, talking, smoking some pot, and eating a lot of pot-luck meals. But also the necessities cost a lot less of our monetary income than they do now. Inflation has not been evenly spread across the board, and we were able to earn a lot less and have more leisure time because the necessities were not gobbling up 80% to 95% of our income.
Rick, you are one stubborn, secularist Yankee, but I really salute you for all your hard work. It’s the same as mine, just under different colors. And you’re right-as-rain about 1968. Right on.
IMHO, things would have been better had Mickey Cohen not had Robert K. shot in Los Angeles. What a horrible, lamentable thing. Like we really needed another tragedy that year…
Rick I’m with you on the erosion of wages thing. If we were living in 1968, my pittance of an income would be completey unnecessary to our household. I like what I do and I’m lucky to be able to do it part time, but not doing it wouldn’t suck either.
The important part of being a secular or spiritual progressive is the ‘progressive’ part. I’m not much for faith-based organizations either. I just try to lead a faith-based life and hitting church periodically keeps me toeing the line.
And yeah, let’s hope we don’t have another year like 1968 anytime soon. We don’t need a vision/leadership vacuum right now.
Spot on, Amber, and Hi.
Doubt that you’d want to steer this toward a theoretical direction, but Jon named the topic, and theoretical it also is.
As I announced, rather pompously, the first time I alighted on this Blog (a couple months at least before Jon dissected poor young Jonah), I don’t really cotton to Progressive-ness. My problem with it is an old one: I’m one of the few Radical Traditionalists (Rick & I are not far apart on that front, actually), except that, for my part, I can’t any longer tolerate the whole Myth of Inevitable Progress, with its allied and even more absurd notion of Human Perfectibility. (See, for example, John Wesley, the original Twelve-Stepper; [well, no, actually that would be J.A. Comenius, but you get the picture.]) I believe that I, as a cultural historian and jack Americanist, can show quite readily that such fond ideas as Progress and Perfection are, and have been, brutally dangerous in recent generations. So, for that reason alone, I am a trained enemy of those notional conceits.
Where I think we all can come together on this, though, is, for me, something quiet that lies plainly hidden in my native Christianity: that we all are, each is, called to a kind of noble failure. Mohandas Gandhi said as much himself: that we, none of us, can actually make a difference, but nonetheless we must try. Rick is trying in his way, so am I in mine; we all here know that Jonathan is so doing, and so, evidently, are you, in Albuquerque — a place I happen to like very much.
I hope you’re doing well at it, even though we all seem to want this NOT to be another 1968. You mention the prospect of better times that might allow you not to have to work against the current. Speed those days, then. But let me ask you this: If you have children at home, then consider how your near-unnecessary work is depriving them, near-unnecessarily; what do you make of that?
…and Amber, I still say that Vonnegut was mistaken about the semicolon…
“…I’m here in Hollywood and there’s no sense of community anywhere other than the gangs.”
Even secular organizations can find uses for spiritual feelings. I learned from bands. A party is needed but the only thing that makes a difference is playing music.
Networks of networks are even stronger when formed at the edges. Consider how many bands Rick knows and how many film crews Jon and Alex know, and so on.
While not necessarily necessary, a change in Hollywood can help. A lot of that community stepped up for Barack Obama. They must believe in something. I hope some out there decide to explore the light side for awhile, or a new center of film making emerges elsewhere. Bollywood is more positive than Hollywood.
What are the goals of universal community awareness, not the goals of community but of communities of communities?
Universal membership? My choices come from the Hindus: compassion, tolerance and self-restraint.
For a band? Look good, play good, sing good, write good. Know your limits. Persistence. Punctuality.
And play sober in public.
“…I’m here in Hollywood and there’s no sense of community anywhere other than the gangs.”
Even secular organizations can find uses for spiritual feelings. I learned from bands. A party is needed but the only thing that makes a difference is playing music.
Networks of networks are even stronger when formed at the edges. Consider how many bands Rick knows and how many film crews Jon and Alex know, and so on.
While not necessarily necessary, a change in Hollywood can help. A lot of that community stepped up for Barack Obama. They must believe in something. I hope some out there decide to explore the light side for awhile, or a new center of film making emerges elsewhere. Bollywood is more positive than Hollywood.
What are the goals of universal community awareness, not the goals of community but of communities of communities?
Universal membership? My choices come from the Hindus: compassion, tolerance and self-restraint.
For a band? Look good, play good, sing good, write good. Know your limits. Persistence. Punctuality.
And play sober in public.
“…I’m here in Hollywood and there’s no sense of community anywhere other than the gangs.”
Even secular organizations can find uses for spiritual feelings. I learned from bands. A party is needed but the only thing that makes a difference is playing music.
Networks of networks are even stronger when formed at the edges. Consider how many bands Rick knows and how many film crews Jon and Alex know, and so on.
While not necessarily necessary, a change in Hollywood can help. A lot of that community stepped up for Barack Obama. They must believe in something. I hope some out there decide to explore the light side for awhile, or a new center of film making emerges elsewhere. Bollywood is more positive than Hollywood.
What are the goals of universal community awareness, not the goals of community but of communities of communities?
Universal membership? My choices come from the Hindus: compassion, tolerance and self-restraint.
For a band? Look good, play good, sing good, write good. Know your limits. Persistence. Punctuality.
And play sober in public.
Wow, len. Sign me up. I happen to know musicians who keep your core, to the letter. Also, I suspect I may know something more: that Hollywood (whatever that still means) is tired of hearing of Bollywood and especially of Indies such as those from Sundance. Lots of smart people there, and they’re already starting to shoot smart again, as they suddenly began doing for a few years beginning circa 196_? when they’d become sick of hearing about hotshot auteurs from Paris.
Plenty of smart, caring people in Los Angeles, and it seems that they’re even rediscovering their writing talent (Hollywood, after all, in a single year sent Faulkner, Steinbeck and Fitzgerald packing). And pictures such as “Wall-E”, “No Country for Old Men” and the Coen Brothers’ underappreciated new flick are beginning to spill down from those hills. So let’s keep hoping.
And playing. Sober in public.
Wow, len. Sign me up. I happen to know musicians who keep your core, to the letter. Also, I suspect I may know something more: that Hollywood (whatever that still means) is tired of hearing of Bollywood and especially of Indies such as those from Sundance. Lots of smart people there, and they’re already starting to shoot smart again, as they suddenly began doing for a few years beginning circa 196_? when they’d become sick of hearing about hotshot auteurs from Paris.
Plenty of smart, caring people in Los Angeles, and it seems that they’re even rediscovering their writing talent (Hollywood, after all, in a single year sent Faulkner, Steinbeck and Fitzgerald packing). And pictures such as “Wall-E”, “No Country for Old Men” and the Coen Brothers’ underappreciated new flick are beginning to spill down from those hills. So let’s keep hoping.
And playing. Sober in public.
Wow, len. Sign me up. I happen to know musicians who keep your core, to the letter. Also, I suspect I may know something more: that Hollywood (whatever that still means) is tired of hearing of Bollywood and especially of Indies such as those from Sundance. Lots of smart people there, and they’re already starting to shoot smart again, as they suddenly began doing for a few years beginning circa 196_? when they’d become sick of hearing about hotshot auteurs from Paris.
Plenty of smart, caring people in Los Angeles, and it seems that they’re even rediscovering their writing talent (Hollywood, after all, in a single year sent Faulkner, Steinbeck and Fitzgerald packing). And pictures such as “Wall-E”, “No Country for Old Men” and the Coen Brothers’ underappreciated new flick are beginning to spill down from those hills. So let’s keep hoping.
And playing. Sober in public.
Hugo, I think I may be using an unorthodox definition of ‘progressive’ in that mine does not equate continued economic growth to progress.
As for what my children are/are not being deprived of, you really need to walk a mile in my moccasins, and my mother’s, and my grandmother’s before you start giving me advice.
Hugo, I think I may be using an unorthodox definition of ‘progressive’ in that mine does not equate continued economic growth to progress.
As for what my children are/are not being deprived of, you really need to walk a mile in my moccasins, and my mother’s, and my grandmother’s before you start giving me advice.
Hugo, I think I may be using an unorthodox definition of ‘progressive’ in that mine does not equate continued economic growth to progress.
As for what my children are/are not being deprived of, you really need to walk a mile in my moccasins, and my mother’s, and my grandmother’s before you start giving me advice.
I do not equate “progressive” with unlimited growth. We’re rapidly approaching (if we’re not there already) the Malthusian disaster zone in many parts of the world, and what we’re seeing is plagues like HIV/AIDS working against population growth, stupid and cruel wars working against population growth, and the real possibility of some major population reductions from nuclear incidents coming right up. There are too many fucking people fucking. The idea that the population should grow and grow and grow to please God (Roman Catholics and others…) or that we need constant population growth for capitalism to succeed is just plain wrong, and it leads to very large paroxysms of population die-offs one way or another. Easter Island was but a hint of a warning of just how population collapse can happen in an ecology that is stressed…and is ruled by whack-job religious priests. I don’t see a hell of a lot of difference between that and any of the cults, be they Christian, Islamic, Jewish, or whatever that suppresses birth control while demonizing sex and encourages out of control population growth, particularly among those who are least able to decently raise their kids, can’t help educate them, and who can ill afford to offer even the same miserable life that they themselves have. Too much is made of peoples’ “rights” to bear children, and too many are really not qualified to do so. I’m not going to go all eugenics on people, but I’d sure like to shut up those who from the pulpit encourage indiscriminate breeding and discourage responsible sex education and the use of birth control. You’re not going to prevent your sons and daughters from going out and screwing; Sarah Palin is a perfect example of how not to educate a daughter. Palin is so self delusional on that score it isn’t funny. So just deal with sexuality as it is, not as a tool with which to try to control people.
Progressive could mean finding that nice place where population matches ecology, and growth means growing consciousness, growing individual wealth in both spiritual and material ways, and more leisure for all of us. For me, progressive would be a well spent 30 hour work week with more time off to get back to playing music well.
I do not equate “progressive” with unlimited growth. We’re rapidly approaching (if we’re not there already) the Malthusian disaster zone in many parts of the world, and what we’re seeing is plagues like HIV/AIDS working against population growth, stupid and cruel wars working against population growth, and the real possibility of some major population reductions from nuclear incidents coming right up. There are too many fucking people fucking. The idea that the population should grow and grow and grow to please God (Roman Catholics and others…) or that we need constant population growth for capitalism to succeed is just plain wrong, and it leads to very large paroxysms of population die-offs one way or another. Easter Island was but a hint of a warning of just how population collapse can happen in an ecology that is stressed…and is ruled by whack-job religious priests. I don’t see a hell of a lot of difference between that and any of the cults, be they Christian, Islamic, Jewish, or whatever that suppresses birth control while demonizing sex and encourages out of control population growth, particularly among those who are least able to decently raise their kids, can’t help educate them, and who can ill afford to offer even the same miserable life that they themselves have. Too much is made of peoples’ “rights” to bear children, and too many are really not qualified to do so. I’m not going to go all eugenics on people, but I’d sure like to shut up those who from the pulpit encourage indiscriminate breeding and discourage responsible sex education and the use of birth control. You’re not going to prevent your sons and daughters from going out and screwing; Sarah Palin is a perfect example of how not to educate a daughter. Palin is so self delusional on that score it isn’t funny. So just deal with sexuality as it is, not as a tool with which to try to control people.
Progressive could mean finding that nice place where population matches ecology, and growth means growing consciousness, growing individual wealth in both spiritual and material ways, and more leisure for all of us. For me, progressive would be a well spent 30 hour work week with more time off to get back to playing music well.
I do not equate “progressive” with unlimited growth. We’re rapidly approaching (if we’re not there already) the Malthusian disaster zone in many parts of the world, and what we’re seeing is plagues like HIV/AIDS working against population growth, stupid and cruel wars working against population growth, and the real possibility of some major population reductions from nuclear incidents coming right up. There are too many fucking people fucking. The idea that the population should grow and grow and grow to please God (Roman Catholics and others…) or that we need constant population growth for capitalism to succeed is just plain wrong, and it leads to very large paroxysms of population die-offs one way or another. Easter Island was but a hint of a warning of just how population collapse can happen in an ecology that is stressed…and is ruled by whack-job religious priests. I don’t see a hell of a lot of difference between that and any of the cults, be they Christian, Islamic, Jewish, or whatever that suppresses birth control while demonizing sex and encourages out of control population growth, particularly among those who are least able to decently raise their kids, can’t help educate them, and who can ill afford to offer even the same miserable life that they themselves have. Too much is made of peoples’ “rights” to bear children, and too many are really not qualified to do so. I’m not going to go all eugenics on people, but I’d sure like to shut up those who from the pulpit encourage indiscriminate breeding and discourage responsible sex education and the use of birth control. You’re not going to prevent your sons and daughters from going out and screwing; Sarah Palin is a perfect example of how not to educate a daughter. Palin is so self delusional on that score it isn’t funny. So just deal with sexuality as it is, not as a tool with which to try to control people.
Progressive could mean finding that nice place where population matches ecology, and growth means growing consciousness, growing individual wealth in both spiritual and material ways, and more leisure for all of us. For me, progressive would be a well spent 30 hour work week with more time off to get back to playing music well.
And that, Rick Turner, is why I still love you! Now back to my housework.
You’re quite right of course, Amber, and while I appreciate your old Southwestern phrasing I wasn’t really offering, much less giving, advice; was merely asking, unbidden but also unrewarded by an equally decent answer. Most of all, if I offended you or any of the women in your family, I truly am sorry to have presumed.
Also, I see now what you mean by “progressive”, and reckon that yours is roughly Jon’s definition too, and Barack’s.
OK by me, all round. I wish you all well, believe me…
Rick,
I loves my Ms. Sarah, Governor of the astonishing State of Alaska. I believe she was both raised well and has done some bold raising herself. Besides, I haven’t run the Iditarod in her mukluks.
Rick,
I loves my Ms. Sarah, Governor of the astonishing State of Alaska. I believe she was both raised well and has done some bold raising herself. Besides, I haven’t run the Iditarod in her mukluks.
Hugo, I bow to your superior intellect. I don’t know how to provide you a rewarding answer or use a semicolon. I’m too damn stupid to have ever given even a moment’s consideration to the effect of my work on my household and my family and made a choice that is best for everyone. I also apparently make piss-poor shoe choices because the moccasin thing wasn’t meant only as a cute Southwestern turn of phrase. Guess I should ask that pretty blond lady in the other post where she got her shoes.
Hugo, I bow to your superior intellect. I don’t know how to provide you a rewarding answer or use a semicolon. I’m too damn stupid to have ever given even a moment’s consideration to the effect of my work on my household and my family and made a choice that is best for everyone. I also apparently make piss-poor shoe choices because the moccasin thing wasn’t meant only as a cute Southwestern turn of phrase. Guess I should ask that pretty blond lady in the other post where she got her shoes.
Amber, Amber:
Were I not appreciative of your own intellect would I have asked for your views in the first place, on matters of which I can have no experience?
Again, forgive my intensity, but I remain very earnest on public issues concerning children. That’s all that is.
Sorry. Sheesh.
Amber, Amber:
Were I not appreciative of your own intellect would I have asked for your views in the first place, on matters of which I can have no experience?
Again, forgive my intensity, but I remain very earnest on public issues concerning children. That’s all that is.
Sorry. Sheesh.
Hugo, you must go all mushy or the opposite when you see Sarah babbling while a turkey is bleeding to death in the background…what a turn-on, hey?
Why can she not compose a real sentence in the English language?
Hugo, Hugo…what would you think of her if you were blind in one eye and couldn’t see out of the other? I cannot imagine anyone simply reading her nonsensical words or hearing her speak and getting all hot and bothered. You must be a most visual person where the eye-candy aspect deflates any common sense right out of you.
She wasn’t raised with much sense, from what I can hear, and I’m sorry, but a knocked up daughter with a boyfriend who proudly proclaims to be a redneck who will kick your fucking ass on his MySpace page is not what I’d want for examples of offspring and friends. We’re talking severe trailer trash here…one step away from a meth lab scene in the boonies. I’d love to know the underage drinking stats for Wasilla; I have a feeling it’s off the charts.
Hugo, you must go all mushy or the opposite when you see Sarah babbling while a turkey is bleeding to death in the background…what a turn-on, hey?
Why can she not compose a real sentence in the English language?
Hugo, Hugo…what would you think of her if you were blind in one eye and couldn’t see out of the other? I cannot imagine anyone simply reading her nonsensical words or hearing her speak and getting all hot and bothered. You must be a most visual person where the eye-candy aspect deflates any common sense right out of you.
She wasn’t raised with much sense, from what I can hear, and I’m sorry, but a knocked up daughter with a boyfriend who proudly proclaims to be a redneck who will kick your fucking ass on his MySpace page is not what I’d want for examples of offspring and friends. We’re talking severe trailer trash here…one step away from a meth lab scene in the boonies. I’d love to know the underage drinking stats for Wasilla; I have a feeling it’s off the charts.
Besides, Amber, although I drink only Pinot, I happen to know that NM makes some of the best wines in the world, including, according to the longtime Wine Steward of the White House, Mr. David Berkeley, the very best sparkling one made in America.
Now can ALASKA make such a proud boast?
Besides, Amber, although I drink only Pinot, I happen to know that NM makes some of the best wines in the world, including, according to the longtime Wine Steward of the White House, Mr. David Berkeley, the very best sparkling one made in America.
Now can ALASKA make such a proud boast?
Besides, Amber, although I drink only Pinot, I happen to know that NM makes some of the best wines in the world, including, according to the longtime Wine Steward of the White House, Mr. David Berkeley, the very best sparkling one made in America.
Now can ALASKA make such a proud boast?
Aha! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/wasillas-meth-problem-mad_n_123996.html
Wasilla seems to be the meth capitol of Alaska…with a lot of underaged drinking, and if you Google a bit, there’s the Palin girl guzzling it up and allowing photos…that’s sensible…dollars to donuts that alcohol was involved in a certain pregnancy. Should have had access to the morning after pill, but that’s abortion, innit?
Listen to David Lindley’s “Meth Lab Boyfriend…
“
Aha! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/wasillas-meth-problem-mad_n_123996.html
Wasilla seems to be the meth capitol of Alaska…with a lot of underaged drinking, and if you Google a bit, there’s the Palin girl guzzling it up and allowing photos…that’s sensible…dollars to donuts that alcohol was involved in a certain pregnancy. Should have had access to the morning after pill, but that’s abortion, innit?
Listen to David Lindley’s “Meth Lab Boyfriend…
“
Aha! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/wasillas-meth-problem-mad_n_123996.html
Wasilla seems to be the meth capitol of Alaska…with a lot of underaged drinking, and if you Google a bit, there’s the Palin girl guzzling it up and allowing photos…that’s sensible…dollars to donuts that alcohol was involved in a certain pregnancy. Should have had access to the morning after pill, but that’s abortion, innit?
Listen to David Lindley’s “Meth Lab Boyfriend…
“
Rick,
Trenchant as always.
But, moving from the ridiculous to the sublime, would you please ask Amber, now that she is no longer speaking to me, whether it is good and safe for Governor Richardson to stand up tomorrow and publicly accept the President-Elect’s nomination to become our next Secretary of Commerce?
First, New Mexico will lose his services. Second, Commerce Secretary can be a damned dangerous posting. My Democrats usually regard the job as that of globetrotting Bagman-in-Chief, and when you spend your days dunning people for cash, the payers sometimes want to put a bullet in your skull.
I worry about that man. He’s good, at some things, and I fully want him nominated someday as our first Latino candidate, if only he would discover a nice Atlanta company called Rosetta Stone…
Rick,
Trenchant as always.
But, moving from the ridiculous to the sublime, would you please ask Amber, now that she is no longer speaking to me, whether it is good and safe for Governor Richardson to stand up tomorrow and publicly accept the President-Elect’s nomination to become our next Secretary of Commerce?
First, New Mexico will lose his services. Second, Commerce Secretary can be a damned dangerous posting. My Democrats usually regard the job as that of globetrotting Bagman-in-Chief, and when you spend your days dunning people for cash, the payers sometimes want to put a bullet in your skull.
I worry about that man. He’s good, at some things, and I fully want him nominated someday as our first Latino candidate, if only he would discover a nice Atlanta company called Rosetta Stone…
Rick,
The meth capitol of Georgia is Dalton, nigh on the border of Eastern Tennessee. There, the deputies deal out of their Crown Vics. So the hell what?
Second — and I realize I’m going out on a limb here, without the benefit of so much as a semicolon — but: I actually adore the way Sarah Palin states incredibly complex things, things only an East-Coast snot like Bill Richardson is supposed to know, in blessedly simple, broadly American plainsong. Do you also write, have you also written, song lyrics? Would you mock a Percy or a Muddy the way you mock her?
Why, then, are women the fairest of game for Democrats, of all people?
Rick,
The meth capitol of Georgia is Dalton, nigh on the border of Eastern Tennessee. There, the deputies deal out of their Crown Vics. So the hell what?
Second — and I realize I’m going out on a limb here, without the benefit of so much as a semicolon — but: I actually adore the way Sarah Palin states incredibly complex things, things only an East-Coast snot like Bill Richardson is supposed to know, in blessedly simple, broadly American plainsong. Do you also write, have you also written, song lyrics? Would you mock a Percy or a Muddy the way you mock her?
Why, then, are women the fairest of game for Democrats, of all people?
Oops, those pics seem to be of the sister of the future-perhaps-husband of the maybe-bride-to-be who is certainly a mother-to-be barring unforseens…which probably makes the pictured under-aged drinker a future ex-sister-in-law.
At least when I was an under-aged drinker, we didn’t take pictures of ourselves and advertise our indiscretions knowing the possible embarrassment to our folks. Seems to me that for politicians’ kids to be doing this might just indicate a big “fuck you” to their parents. This, of course, isn’t the first of that, and it won’t be the last, but it is indicative of a double standard that’s right on out there.
Oops, those pics seem to be of the sister of the future-perhaps-husband of the maybe-bride-to-be who is certainly a mother-to-be barring unforseens…which probably makes the pictured under-aged drinker a future ex-sister-in-law.
At least when I was an under-aged drinker, we didn’t take pictures of ourselves and advertise our indiscretions knowing the possible embarrassment to our folks. Seems to me that for politicians’ kids to be doing this might just indicate a big “fuck you” to their parents. This, of course, isn’t the first of that, and it won’t be the last, but it is indicative of a double standard that’s right on out there.
Well the Bush daughters turned out to be lovely grown-ups full of Charity, so…
Even Alice Roosevelt eventually knocked it off, a bit.
And anyway, songman, down in Town they make misbehaving princesses queens for crap like that, and happily keep the fools in purse-dogs and purse-making ventures.
Come on, Turner. When did YOU get so judgmental, and when, for that matter, did the perfectly absurd Arianna Huffington do?
Well the Bush daughters turned out to be lovely grown-ups full of Charity, so…
Even Alice Roosevelt eventually knocked it off, a bit.
And anyway, songman, down in Town they make misbehaving princesses queens for crap like that, and happily keep the fools in purse-dogs and purse-making ventures.
Come on, Turner. When did YOU get so judgmental, and when, for that matter, did the perfectly absurd Arianna Huffington do?
I’m only judgmental about hypocrisy. I’m live and let live otherwise to the point of being downright libertarian when it comes to people having sex with one another, smoking dope or doing other drugs, etc., etc. As long as it’s consensual, as long as it doesn’t involve power trips or even unintended negative consequences for others, I’m cool with it. I’m fine with protected sex among the teen set; I’m not OK with self-righteous parents trying to deny the existence of sexual urges, denying access to honest sex education and birth control, and putting themselves out there as paragons of virtue when they aren’t taking care of what’s right under their own roofs. To me, that describes Sarah P to a T. She’s a self-righteous hypocrite.
And she can’t put a logical sentence together unless she’s reading from a teleprompter.
You may get turned on by her perfect WalMart hockey mom looks…but I’ll take a smart woman any time who has a visual flaw or two. Hell, I’ve got three or four myself. Brains are a real turn-on, and Sarah doesn’t do it for me…or most of the electorate who were turned off by what they were finally able to hear, though the Repugs did their damnedest to make sure we only saw her. She was McCain’s Vanna White dumbed down…
No, Rick, I’m not turned on by her at all, or by her smartass SNL look-alike either. I’m turned on by a certain Captain’s daughter in Virginia.
But I appreciate immensely your customary frankness, as you’ve explained something to me I never could get about you: “I’m only judgmental about hypocrisy.” All right. OK. I get that. If you want to go after Ms. Sarah and her own “hypocrisy”, then look at how she played, from Day One, the notorious Bridge to Nowhere. That’ll pretty much confirm your animus, if that’s what you want to do. (Me, I tend to worry about politicians more than I tend to diss them — and, as you know, I diss them plenty.)
Let me throw some flipside to you, though, about the concept of hypocrisy, the mode that pisses you off so. Break down the old Greek word, please. The prefix “hypo-”, to lessen, wedded to the root “krise”, or crisis. It’s the human condition, Ashcroft: to do what needs doing, to lessen the crisis. That’s pretty close to being essentially human, I think, and nothing certainly that would warrant such tremendous battling from those of you who thrash guitars and Harleys (or whatever) and otherwise hold forth and do battle in defense of your good loves.
Hypocrisy is just hypocrisy. You know that I’m an apprentice Christian, Rick, and thank you for being relatively cool with that. But man, the rustic rabbi I hold to have been, to be, my damn Lord, and Savior, was tarred and tortured to death by hypocrites, pit vipers, cackling hyeenas, etc. And why’d they do it? Because he called them — both the civil and the religious authorities — on their…hypocrisy.
Hugo, it comes down to this with this particular Sarah Palin issue…I don’t want someone who can’t educate her own daughter on keeping some red neck ass kicking yahoo’s sperm out of her vagina to be dictating my kids’ sex education curriculum. That’s as basic as I can put it. It all spirals up from there and quickly includes that whole horrible issue of making rape victims in Wasilla pay for their own rape kit exams. That is some seriously mysogyenistic shit there, and yes, women can be anti-woman mysogenists, too. Then, yes, we can talk earmarks for the sake of spending money and what kind of mayor presides over the meth capital of Alaska and how she can’t seem to string ten words together and now how she can think that happy babble with a background of turkey blood can possibly play well to the lower 48. She may love bathing in blood, and yes, I know that we who eat meat are complicit in the killing of animals, but I didn’t do a guitar commercial with a background of a steer being shot, hung, and bled in my driveway in 1978 when I paid the butcher to come out to my place and perform such rituals. So Ms. SmartyPanties goes out to “pardon” a turkey, and we get to see two of them slaughtered while she babbles absolute nonsense. Whew! We dodged that bouncing bullet of a VP candidate, thank any God to whom you prefer to pray. So, Hugo, I see Ms. Palin more than ever as a total idiot unworthy of being proclaimed a leader. I hope her days in the midnight sun are long and that she doesn’t have to come down to the lower 48 very much in the future. And may that God of choice help us if the Repubs decide she’s a vote draw, though she’s not likely to benefit from so much protection ever again. Also, with that turkey interview, anyone she runs against in the future on the national level has the political WMD to end all. That spot is the last nail in her coffin, and just doing it proves how completely out of touch with the greater electorate she really is. It’s a scene worthy of “Deliverance”.
Damn, take two days to drive to Sonoma to pick up my kid and I miss a perfectly good playground Palin fight.
Hugo, I assume you are just trolling, because the woman is an opportunistic political chameleon who makes Dan Quayle look not so bad in retrospect. Not good, just not as bad as the Palin.
Moving further up the thread, the use of the word “progressive” in American politics has nothing to do with economic or technological “progress”: it’s a code word for “Liberal” which, like elite, has been so co-opted as to be useless.
To be “progressive” in this sense is to be interested in the moral progress of humans as opposed to our “progress” with toys, GDP growth, or making newer and more destructive weapons, or (pick your insanity of choice).
And I could give a fig whether you use your religion or your secular experiences to accomplish it. Use whatever and help stop the intellectual knuckle dragging that has been US politics for the past 30 years and that will be v. v. progressive.
Actually, in my one year at blogging I have yet to troll, but if doing so smokes out this kind of hilarious brilliance in you guys then sure, I’ll bar the bridge anytime.
Rick, dump music and come do some good-old childsaving. I need a real nutcutter to run interference with goddam NEA, and something tells me you’re more than equal to the task!
“We ARE as gods and might as well get good at it” cool.
Is that a secular notion?
I forgot the multiple URL rule. Let me try this in short form without the URLs. If it interests you, google the terms.
Doing the smart thing vs religion: if you were given evidence that monocultures created genetic disadvantages for the population of such a culture conferring on it a legacy of permanent inferior intelligence, but that mating with another culture removed the inhibitors, would you if you had the power allow a natual catastrophe to create an artificial diaspora to increase the chances of such cross-matings?
No? See Bruce Lahn’s research on microencephalin, the mating pairs from about 70000 to 6000 years ago, and the continent the change skipped over, then take another look at Katrina?
Awful yes? Why? If your culture is entirely secular, why isn’t it ok to scatter a population if concentrating it reduces its intelligence? Because it’s racist?
Note also studies that show lower-birth rates among the secular populations in Europe. Idiocracy at work?
I’m not trying to start a eugenics debate. I’m saying the ‘smart move’ and the ‘values-laden’ move can’t be uncoupled so easily. Not all Christians demonize sex and refuse to teach birth control. Not all secular humanists are willing to enable a diaspora to improve the microencephalin balance in a race.
“’We ARE as gods and might as well get good at it’ cool.”
“Is that a secular notion?”
tacovan,
Nah, a religious one. The secular version starts, “We ARE gods…”