Redneck Pride
As I’ve said before, I sometimes listen to Rush Limbaugh in the morning on the way into work. Recently I’ve noticed a lot of ads for services that help you negotiate your way out of IRS debts. And then I noticed that the worst vacancy rates for shopping malls were in the South and it occured to me that the economy for poor white folks is really tanking. This morning Joe Bageant, author of Deerhunting with Jesus
During this US election cycle we are hearing a lot from the pundits and candidates about “heartland voters,” and “white working class voters.”
What they are talking about are rednecks. But in their political correctness, media types cannot bring themselves to utter the word “redneck.” So I’ll say it for them: redneck-redneck-redneck-redneck. As to having our delicate beer-sodden feelings protected from the term redneck; well, I appreciate the effort, though I highly suspect that the best way to hide snobbishness is to pose as protector of any class of folks you cannot bear. Thus we are being protected by the very people who look down on us – educated urban progressives.
And let’s face it, there’s plenty to look down on. By any tasteful standard, we ain’t a pretty people.
Uppity and slick? Not us…
We come in one size: extra large. We are sometimes insolent and often quick to fight. We love competitive spectacle such as NASCAR and paintball, and believe gun ownership is the eleventh commandment. We fry things nobody ever considered friable – things like cupcakes, banana sandwiches and batter dipped artificial cheese…even pickles.
And that is one of the reasons that, mystifying as it is to the outside world, John McCain’s choice of the moose-shooting Alaskan woman with the pregnant unmarried teen daughter appeals to many redneck and working class Americans.
We all understand that there is a political class which dominates in America, and that Sarah Palin for damned sure is not one of them. And the more she is attacked by liberal Democratic elements (translation: elite highly-educated big city people) the more America’s working mooks will come to her defence. Her daughter had a baby out of wedlock? Big deal. What family has not? She is a Christian fundamentalist who believes God spat on his beefy paws and made the world in seven days? So do at least 150 million other Americans. She snowmobiles and fishes and she is a looker to boot. She’s a redneck.
Bageant goes on to describe why Rednecks like war and believe
“The only free country in the world is the United States, and the only reason we ever go to war is to protect that freedom. All this has become so deeply instilled as to now be reflexive. It represents many of the worst traits in American culture and a few of the best. And that has every thinking person here in the US, except perhaps John McCain and Sarah Palin, worried.
Very worried.
I linked to this in an earlier post, but it may be worth sharing again: Gretchen Wilson / Redneck Woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30V5vnYHzk
Everything Jon is citing seems to be summed up here, in a very visceral fashion. And that’s the thing of it; the support Palin enjoys is proudly and profoundly thoughtless. Issues and ideas are getting steamrollered by personality and action.
I heard somewhere that Wagner wrote operas because he wanted to put philosophers in their place, reminding them that there’s not a thought in the world that can transport a person with the same overwhelming power as emotion.
And now this is what Obama is up against.
I linked to this in an earlier post, but it may be worth sharing again: Gretchen Wilson / Redneck Woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30V5vnYHzk
Everything Jon is citing seems to be summed up here, in a very visceral fashion. And that’s the thing of it; the support Palin enjoys is proudly and profoundly thoughtless. Issues and ideas are getting steamrollered by personality and action.
I heard somewhere that Wagner wrote operas because he wanted to put philosophers in their place, reminding them that there’s not a thought in the world that can transport a person with the same overwhelming power as emotion.
And now this is what Obama is up against.
See Idiocracy.
Here’s the tough problem: all of America has rednecks and they come in every race, class and background.
And that means the Red/Blue divide is somewhat permanent. Trying to fix that is like trying to count the sequins on a Porter Wagoner suit. By the time you’re done, you’re blind.
Us Vs Them will make McCain the next POTUS. They are counting on Obama supporters to do what they seem to be so eager to do. Palin is the proof that is so and the fact that it is working means those supporters are not only not smarter than the rednecks, they may be a little less because the rednecks know what they have to do to win and are doing it.
“Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble
When you’re perfect in every way”
See Idiocracy.
Here’s the tough problem: all of America has rednecks and they come in every race, class and background.
And that means the Red/Blue divide is somewhat permanent. Trying to fix that is like trying to count the sequins on a Porter Wagoner suit. By the time you’re done, you’re blind.
Us Vs Them will make McCain the next POTUS. They are counting on Obama supporters to do what they seem to be so eager to do. Palin is the proof that is so and the fact that it is working means those supporters are not only not smarter than the rednecks, they may be a little less because the rednecks know what they have to do to win and are doing it.
“Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble
When you’re perfect in every way”
I say call a redneck and redneck and a lipsticked pig a lipsticked pig. She is a redneck. To confront that you have to attack like Obama is doing. She is a redneck and the thing about it is, that the repubs have used the bait and switch on the wrong crowd. We all remember the rednecks right, don’t back down.
I remember one party back in the haze, we were bound to celebrate the New Year. Our friend, Jim, was back from the East Coast on break and he had brought three friends from New York with him. Three of us were sitting on the couch sharing a doob when they passed and the girl suddenly whirled towards us and grabbed her crotch. “I got your smile right here.” she yelled.
We, of course, broke up. A spade is a spade. The repub’s have technique they use that makes it appear that the demos are saying things that they shouldn’t. They preempt the whole situation by saying that the dems were saying it and ought to apologize even though they haven’t been saying it. Kerry fell for it. I don’t know about Gore. Obama isn’t.
Obama needs to call McCain and Her on everything that he believes in by stating his own beliefs clearly, which he has. He needs to call them on each issue for their reasons so folks can spot the same sameness in their answers that we do. He needs to call them on the issues she represents, women’s rights, church in the state, ask her why she uses the word choice for her daughter and would stack the Supreme Court to prevent any other choice but that.
Enough is enough. Wakeup America.
I say call a redneck and redneck and a lipsticked pig a lipsticked pig. She is a redneck. To confront that you have to attack like Obama is doing. She is a redneck and the thing about it is, that the repubs have used the bait and switch on the wrong crowd. We all remember the rednecks right, don’t back down.
I remember one party back in the haze, we were bound to celebrate the New Year. Our friend, Jim, was back from the East Coast on break and he had brought three friends from New York with him. Three of us were sitting on the couch sharing a doob when they passed and the girl suddenly whirled towards us and grabbed her crotch. “I got your smile right here.” she yelled.
We, of course, broke up. A spade is a spade. The repub’s have technique they use that makes it appear that the demos are saying things that they shouldn’t. They preempt the whole situation by saying that the dems were saying it and ought to apologize even though they haven’t been saying it. Kerry fell for it. I don’t know about Gore. Obama isn’t.
Obama needs to call McCain and Her on everything that he believes in by stating his own beliefs clearly, which he has. He needs to call them on each issue for their reasons so folks can spot the same sameness in their answers that we do. He needs to call them on the issues she represents, women’s rights, church in the state, ask her why she uses the word choice for her daughter and would stack the Supreme Court to prevent any other choice but that.
Enough is enough. Wakeup America.
And Joe, if you’re listening, who ever told you that people like redneck and redneckism. Don’t you know that the audience to your life is there to watch you beat yourself up? Geez, Joe get a clue. People do fear rednecks but that ain’t nothing like liking, Joe. You should have used one of those security cameras you found in your house to take a look at their face as you turned away.
BTW, I ain’t worrying, I am laughing.
And redneck pride, yet another reason to beat these demons down. The Dixie Chicks have redneck pride. You Joe have redneck hubris.
And Joe, if you’re listening, who ever told you that people like redneck and redneckism. Don’t you know that the audience to your life is there to watch you beat yourself up? Geez, Joe get a clue. People do fear rednecks but that ain’t nothing like liking, Joe. You should have used one of those security cameras you found in your house to take a look at their face as you turned away.
BTW, I ain’t worrying, I am laughing.
And redneck pride, yet another reason to beat these demons down. The Dixie Chicks have redneck pride. You Joe have redneck hubris.
Jim Webb wrote a book about the whole Scots-Irish back-country culture back before he became a senator, called Born Fighting, and talked at length about how he was proud to be from that warrior culture, which was spat upon by the lowland Southern plantation from back in antebellum days. I don’t know offhand, but he might be the only senator who wouldn’t be ashamed of being called a redneck.
As I remember, Webb wrote the book to show what his people, those back-country Scots-Irish, had done for the U.S., and how crucial they were to the military history of the country-A. Jackson, MacArthur and Patton, to name three famous generals. It’s worth reading, maybe especially by those urban intellectual liberals Palin is working against. You wonder if Obama shouldn’t have signed Webb on as VP, and whether they shouldn’t be pushing Webb out there now to show that Democrats can have redneck values too.
Jim Webb wrote a book about the whole Scots-Irish back-country culture back before he became a senator, called Born Fighting, and talked at length about how he was proud to be from that warrior culture, which was spat upon by the lowland Southern plantation from back in antebellum days. I don’t know offhand, but he might be the only senator who wouldn’t be ashamed of being called a redneck.
As I remember, Webb wrote the book to show what his people, those back-country Scots-Irish, had done for the U.S., and how crucial they were to the military history of the country-A. Jackson, MacArthur and Patton, to name three famous generals. It’s worth reading, maybe especially by those urban intellectual liberals Palin is working against. You wonder if Obama shouldn’t have signed Webb on as VP, and whether they shouldn’t be pushing Webb out there now to show that Democrats can have redneck values too.
I don’t think it’s entirely a matter of rednecks. The people I worry about are the people who flopped badly in third grade every time they were called upon to read out loud (insert picture of George W. Bush here), and their primary goal in life is to make sure that those smarmy smart kids can never laugh at them again. This involves, above all else, constantly shouting at the smarmy smart kids that they’re afraid, or elitists, or American family destroyers, or terrorist sympathizers, or whatever other foolish labels they can come up with. Twenty four hours a day.
Fox News isn’t aimed at rednecks. Fox News is aimed at the people who couldn’t read out loud in third grade. The message from Fox News has always been, “YOU are not stupid…THEY are stupid. Let us tell you why in short words.”
Plenty of rednecks actually do at least some reading and have at least some understanding of the world; plenty of them, of whatever intellectual capacity, do not fear that the old third grade flop sweat will come back.
I worry about the people who do, more than I worry about beer bellies at a NASCAR event.
I don’t think it’s entirely a matter of rednecks. The people I worry about are the people who flopped badly in third grade every time they were called upon to read out loud (insert picture of George W. Bush here), and their primary goal in life is to make sure that those smarmy smart kids can never laugh at them again. This involves, above all else, constantly shouting at the smarmy smart kids that they’re afraid, or elitists, or American family destroyers, or terrorist sympathizers, or whatever other foolish labels they can come up with. Twenty four hours a day.
Fox News isn’t aimed at rednecks. Fox News is aimed at the people who couldn’t read out loud in third grade. The message from Fox News has always been, “YOU are not stupid…THEY are stupid. Let us tell you why in short words.”
Plenty of rednecks actually do at least some reading and have at least some understanding of the world; plenty of them, of whatever intellectual capacity, do not fear that the old third grade flop sweat will come back.
I worry about the people who do, more than I worry about beer bellies at a NASCAR event.
Go ahead folks, keep thinking Sarah Palin is a redneck, or whitetrash, or whatever it is the PR people want you to believe. She isn’t. Period. She is an ideologue and a savvy and tough little beauty queen containing an ego the size of Alaska, with a lot of ambition who is willing to bite any hand that won’t help her get what she wants, including the one that feeds her.
Go ahead folks, keep thinking Sarah Palin is a redneck, or whitetrash, or whatever it is the PR people want you to believe. She isn’t. Period. She is an ideologue and a savvy and tough little beauty queen containing an ego the size of Alaska, with a lot of ambition who is willing to bite any hand that won’t help her get what she wants, including the one that feeds her.
Dan, very well said. They’re the guys who didn’t quite make the second string of varsity football in high school. They’re the girls who didn’t make the cheer-leading squad, but tried for four years. They are still seething from real and imagined slights from those high school years when what should have been the best years of their lives weren’t quite what they had hoped they would be. The still want the Sarah Palins of their class to have been their best friends if they’re women, or if they’re men, then Sarah was the dream date for the senior prom who wouldn’t quite go all the way that night. Either way, Palin inspires some sort of desire among these folks whose best years are not in the future, but are illusions of the past.
Some of us think that our best years can be in the future when our life’s worth of experience can pay off…
Dan, very well said. They’re the guys who didn’t quite make the second string of varsity football in high school. They’re the girls who didn’t make the cheer-leading squad, but tried for four years. They are still seething from real and imagined slights from those high school years when what should have been the best years of their lives weren’t quite what they had hoped they would be. The still want the Sarah Palins of their class to have been their best friends if they’re women, or if they’re men, then Sarah was the dream date for the senior prom who wouldn’t quite go all the way that night. Either way, Palin inspires some sort of desire among these folks whose best years are not in the future, but are illusions of the past.
Some of us think that our best years can be in the future when our life’s worth of experience can pay off…
JT – She’s as much of a redneck as anybody in Nashville who makes gazillions of dollars catering to redneck fantasies.
Which is to say close, but not quite. But that’s not the point. What’s unnerving is the response she triggers in actual rednecks, and the effect it can have on election day.
JT – She’s as much of a redneck as anybody in Nashville who makes gazillions of dollars catering to redneck fantasies.
Which is to say close, but not quite. But that’s not the point. What’s unnerving is the response she triggers in actual rednecks, and the effect it can have on election day.
And Rick; amen.
And Rick; amen.
I am afraid if you guys are not afraid of this “thing” that is happening, then you are not paying attention.
If you think that this is all “stupid” people voting for a purdy redneck, then you are not only NOT paying attention, but you are doing a disservice to the goal of electing the right person for the job.
What is going on with this Sarah Palin thing is waaaay beyond The Stupids falling for another smoke and mirror show. Try and be the smart people that you are and come up with a better answer than…”nuh uh. YOU are stoopid!” This is a cultural divide that goes beyond stupid and smart people, and to keep on singing to that tune is about as stupid as it gets.
A discussion about what is really happening here, with this cultural divide, cannot be had when bad (and unfunny) analogies are made about students that are afraid to read out loud or were unable to make the team in high school. To me, that shows an inability to think beyond whatever visceral reaction you may have from the outrage of it all. It is an emotional response instead of an intellectual one. And boring. And wrong.
It is similiar to being in an argument with a woman you are romantically involved with, and now have her pinned (logically) into a corner and her only response is, “you have a tiny penis!”
That is a funnier analogy.
…not that I have heard that a number of times in my life or anything….
I am afraid if you guys are not afraid of this “thing” that is happening, then you are not paying attention.
If you think that this is all “stupid” people voting for a purdy redneck, then you are not only NOT paying attention, but you are doing a disservice to the goal of electing the right person for the job.
What is going on with this Sarah Palin thing is waaaay beyond The Stupids falling for another smoke and mirror show. Try and be the smart people that you are and come up with a better answer than…”nuh uh. YOU are stoopid!” This is a cultural divide that goes beyond stupid and smart people, and to keep on singing to that tune is about as stupid as it gets.
A discussion about what is really happening here, with this cultural divide, cannot be had when bad (and unfunny) analogies are made about students that are afraid to read out loud or were unable to make the team in high school. To me, that shows an inability to think beyond whatever visceral reaction you may have from the outrage of it all. It is an emotional response instead of an intellectual one. And boring. And wrong.
It is similiar to being in an argument with a woman you are romantically involved with, and now have her pinned (logically) into a corner and her only response is, “you have a tiny penis!”
That is a funnier analogy.
…not that I have heard that a number of times in my life or anything….
It’s classic Marx, though, isn’t it? The confusion of the working class’ best interests through their culture.
It’s classic Marx, though, isn’t it? The confusion of the working class’ best interests through their culture.
AJ
You are so on the money. She’s a *total* change of subject, and a complete derailment of Obama’s buttoned down, Harvard infused, issues-driven approach. On the one hand you’ve got a guy who probably hates canned tuna going up against somebody who gets a kick out of dynamite fishing (ok, that’s speculation, but you get my drift).
So yes, the redneck thing is an oversimplification, to be sure. A few posts back, somebody introduced an analysis by Depak Chopra that had to do with various fears and sources of anger and whatnot.
The upshot is that somebody (like Obama) who encourages people to reach or their better selves ends up calling attention to the fact that folks have room for improvement. For some people (esp. among the striving classes that flood Ivy League colleges with applications) this quest for self-actualization is a fetish. They love Obama.
But for others, it’s just a threat, as it can destabilize a sense that “hey, I’m okay, and what I think and feel is fine the way it is.” For them, being told they can ‘be better’ isn’t inspiring, it’s actually a little insulting. This is a class much bigger than just rednecks, and one that includes plenty of people who are well-off and self-satisfied.
Of course, I don’t want to suggest that Chopra’s suggestion is ‘it’ either, because it’s also an oversimplification. Better to consider it as one more facet.
Ultimately, plenty of folks here realize that Palin is a phenomena, and that she appeals for a variety of reasons which are not easily reduced to one simple explanation or another. That said, all of the reasons seem to be pretty scary.
And I think the folks who like her pick up on that. They recognize that’s she’s a potent weapon, and that makes her even more appealing.
If whuppin’ my kids’ asses was good enough for my daddy, it’s good enough for me and my kids…
I’ve got a relative whose father beat him severely enough when he was a kid that he’s only got one kidney. Guess who the old man will vote for come November…
Obama aspires.
McCain conspires.
Rednecks perspire.
Rednecks for me have always symbolized people who live off the fat of the land (no pun intended), who take pride in what is surplus but understand little in what created the surplus (and don’t care to). Hence we end up with a fear/pride divide that’s ruled by the long end of a gun. Why use reason when you can use force? Wasn’t this the law of the wild west? It’s always those lawyers from the big city that come and mess everything up and get paid for it too!
You can find parallels to “rednecks” in other cultures but with clear and distinct differences of tastes than the American variety. In Europe a “rednecks” might look like guys who drive old black BMWs with beefy car stereos that play beat driven techno music while their girlfriends dress up like part time prostitutes. Much of this would horrify the average American redneck apart from the overconsumption of low quality beer.
Regardless of the culture, surplus is the key and there’s no better place to talk about surplus than Alaska. With all that land around I wonder if anyone even noticed they had a redneck governor. Who should care about her policies when they get a oil drilling dividend check every month which pays for the basics like truck fuel, fried foods and cheap beer.
So its clear that Sarah Palin, and the people she represents, will take up the cause to save all the Wal-Marts rather than bring any serious issues for the country into the debatable realm.
“To me, that shows an inability to think beyond whatever visceral reaction you may have from the outrage of it all. It is an emotional response instead of an intellectual one. And boring. And wrong.”
Um I’m not sure how this is any different. Now YOU are saying, “No, YOU are stupid.”
But I don’t think you really grasped my original point.
Cultural divide there most certainly is. It goes beyond any one simple definition.
But, I repeat, the people I worry about most are the ones filled with resentment of people who make an effort to understand things, and they turn that resentment into hate. That’s who Fox News speaks to.
If that opinion of mine leads you to conclude that I’m stupid, so be it. You’re not the first to think so.
“To me, that shows an inability to think beyond whatever visceral reaction you may have from the outrage of it all. It is an emotional response instead of an intellectual one. And boring. And wrong.”
Um I’m not sure how this is any different. Now YOU are saying, “No, YOU are stupid.”
But I don’t think you really grasped my original point.
Cultural divide there most certainly is. It goes beyond any one simple definition.
But, I repeat, the people I worry about most are the ones filled with resentment of people who make an effort to understand things, and they turn that resentment into hate. That’s who Fox News speaks to.
If that opinion of mine leads you to conclude that I’m stupid, so be it. You’re not the first to think so.
But doesn’t this all go back to Palin’s ability to sustain herself as a celebrity to a fairly resentful nation? American consumer culture raises our aspirations—Anyone can get rich.
When expectations outstrip real outcomes, we feel either aggressively resentful or depressed.
She is able to play to that resentment.
But doesn’t this all go back to Palin’s ability to sustain herself as a celebrity to a fairly resentful nation? American consumer culture raises our aspirations—Anyone can get rich.
When expectations outstrip real outcomes, we feel either aggressively resentful or depressed.
She is able to play to that resentment.
Being a redneck is not exactly a positive thing, but if you want to play the “redneck card”, I’ll refer you to an official political group, “Rednecks for Obama”.
Being a redneck is not exactly a positive thing, but if you want to play the “redneck card”, I’ll refer you to an official political group, “Rednecks for Obama”.
The key insight is that people don’t vote for people who look down on them.
You’re close to understanding why the Obama candidacy is in trouble, but Jon, I think you may need to dig deeper into why The Band could play “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down” to any audience and you were working with Scorcese. I don’t mean that as an insult.
Our cultures don’t divide us if we don’t let them. Obama talked hope but his supporters talk victory over the boomers, over the whites, over the rednecks…
over The Others.
We loved Samantha because a goddess not only loved a mortal, she loved only the one mortal. Regardless of all her world of privilege and power could do to change that, she held onto the one choice that no external power can change: who do you love?
“Forty seven miles of barbed wire…”
Chopra may unwittingly be talking about the source of Palin’s popularity but she is not the Shadow. You are.
My point is that people don’t vote for people they *think* or *imagine* or *fear* are looking down on them.
The people they fear includes pretty much everyone who says anything outside of, “YOU aren’t stupid, THEY are stupid, and let me tell you why in short words.”
If we have to coddle people whose idea of foreign policy can be summed up as “nuke ‘em all” and whose idea of economic policy is “I want gas to be two dollars a gallon again,” then we’re screwed.
My point is that people don’t vote for people they *think* or *imagine* or *fear* are looking down on them.
The people they fear includes pretty much everyone who says anything outside of, “YOU aren’t stupid, THEY are stupid, and let me tell you why in short words.”
If we have to coddle people whose idea of foreign policy can be summed up as “nuke ‘em all” and whose idea of economic policy is “I want gas to be two dollars a gallon again,” then we’re screwed.
Dan – you’ve just reached the conclusion that Socrates came to: without a good system of education, a democracy is fucked.
And Len, another way of expressing this very real truth is in the advice given to aspiring Congressmen: Never dress better than your constituents.
Dan – you’ve just reached the conclusion that Socrates came to: without a good system of education, a democracy is fucked.
And Len, another way of expressing this very real truth is in the advice given to aspiring Congressmen: Never dress better than your constituents.
dan:
Do you know what a stereotype that is? There is an article in the local paper today about a couple who built a house with 6500 square feet of space and completely off the grid. All of the technologies were off the shelf. There are aspects of location, particularly, it helps to have a cave nearby.
You are deeply bought into an image and that enables others to wire your brain. When my generation finally realized what had been done them by the media, they went looking for America. Some found it and settled there. Others never did and now deny it exists.
Others build it one house at a time.
Everytime someone offers a dyadic relationship, the are trying to set your wiring. Few such exist. Polarities aren’t solved. They are managed.
If you think the rednecks don’t know that, you’ve never lived with them. If you think the neos are smarter than the rednecks, you never lived with either. You’re watching a shadow play on a wall. It keeps you safely in your seat so you won’t go outside and make a show of your own.
Who do you love? Learn how your brain wiring works. Then pick up the prize.
dan:
Do you know what a stereotype that is? There is an article in the local paper today about a couple who built a house with 6500 square feet of space and completely off the grid. All of the technologies were off the shelf. There are aspects of location, particularly, it helps to have a cave nearby.
You are deeply bought into an image and that enables others to wire your brain. When my generation finally realized what had been done them by the media, they went looking for America. Some found it and settled there. Others never did and now deny it exists.
Others build it one house at a time.
Everytime someone offers a dyadic relationship, the are trying to set your wiring. Few such exist. Polarities aren’t solved. They are managed.
If you think the rednecks don’t know that, you’ve never lived with them. If you think the neos are smarter than the rednecks, you never lived with either. You’re watching a shadow play on a wall. It keeps you safely in your seat so you won’t go outside and make a show of your own.
Who do you love? Learn how your brain wiring works. Then pick up the prize.
len – I love your meme. It couldn’t be more timely.
len – I love your meme. It couldn’t be more timely.
“Our cultures don’t divide us if we don’t let them. Obama talked hope but his supporters talk victory over the boomers, over the whites, over the rednecks…”
I understand the sentiment len, but unfortunately that is not how the world works. We DO divide ourselves. The right have figured out how to capitalize on it , and most of the left have played into their game.
As if education had anything to do with it…
Jon, this resentment you speak of is real. I am not sure what is the cause, but it is certainly derived from some kind of blow to the ego. You seem to have pinned it down to some real aspect of people’s lives vis-a-vis their failed aspirations. But I tend to think this resentment stems from a much deeper and emotional place that is in no small part bolstered by reactions to Sarah Palin.
“Our cultures don’t divide us if we don’t let them. Obama talked hope but his supporters talk victory over the boomers, over the whites, over the rednecks…”
I understand the sentiment len, but unfortunately that is not how the world works. We DO divide ourselves. The right have figured out how to capitalize on it , and most of the left have played into their game.
As if education had anything to do with it…
Jon, this resentment you speak of is real. I am not sure what is the cause, but it is certainly derived from some kind of blow to the ego. You seem to have pinned it down to some real aspect of people’s lives vis-a-vis their failed aspirations. But I tend to think this resentment stems from a much deeper and emotional place that is in no small part bolstered by reactions to Sarah Palin.
@another jon: I think the world is agnostic. We make the world work. We let others wire our brains to meet their goals. We are seldom able to overcome that if what they tell us resonates with our own wiring and as a result, we are easily led.
We voted for Bush twice.
We bought the SUVs.
We stood by while our allies told us there were no WMDs and we sent our children to unseat Saddam for reasons more related to our SUVs than our fears of harm.
Those who lead from quiet places, almost anonymously, share values. It is these values that we should be shaping, not setting off just another round of Us vs Them.
We let Bush talk us into a policy of pre-emption. What will we willingly suffer to deny that power to the executive? Is it all or none?
A question: if the aircraft vectored to Flight 93 had arrived in time, would you have given the shoot down order? If you had spoken Farsi and understood the conversations of the men sitting in front of you, would you have reached around the seat and cut their throats?
Sarah Palin would have. That is why people like her.
Those are easy.
If Ukraine joins NATO and Putin invades, will you order strikes on the Russian tank force? If they threaten Germany, will you allow the use of neutron bombs to stop the tanks?
I’ve no lack of disgust for the mistakes of the Bush administration, but running against Bush is how Bush ran against Clinton. Bad people can win that way. Unless Obama stops that, I’m concluding he is exactly the same kind of boob Bush is: self-obsessed, narcissistic, and not sharing my values.
Then it comes down to what I’m voting against, not what I’m voting for because I only have two to choose from in an Us Vs Them.
Frankly, voting for the lesser of evils really is a River of Sh*t as the Fugs said. So my solution is to push on both of them until they converge on the center. The center may not hold, but walking the rails of the bridge is a heckuva lot more dangerous. One misstep and the game is zero sum. From the center, there is a little more time and opportunity to recover.
I inadvertantly blogged on this the other day.
We may wind up replacing Jethro Bodine (W Bush) with a critter hating Ellie Mae (Palin). McCain as Mr Drisdale.
Republicans love to vote for hillbillies.
Bush isn’t even a real hillbilly/redneck. He’s an upper crust New Englander pretending to be a big hat, shit kicking, brush cutting, wetback out-fencing Texan. He’s a Yalie, fer heaven’s sake!
Bush isn’t even a real hillbilly/redneck. He’s an upper crust New Englander pretending to be a big hat, shit kicking, brush cutting, wetback out-fencing Texan. He’s a Yalie, fer heaven’s sake!
True. Ellie Mae could have taken down bin Laden with a slingshot.
So my alternative then is Step n Fetchit with a law degree?
We’ve all got stereotypes.
But you’re right about Bush. No respecting hillbilly stands by while his neighbors are drowing. A country boy can survive, and will get out his chain saw to cut a way in and take his hammers to build a house. I saw a lot of church vans with tags from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Arkansas. Mysteriously, not a lot from Northern California.
True. Ellie Mae could have taken down bin Laden with a slingshot.
So my alternative then is Step n Fetchit with a law degree?
We’ve all got stereotypes.
But you’re right about Bush. No respecting hillbilly stands by while his neighbors are drowing. A country boy can survive, and will get out his chain saw to cut a way in and take his hammers to build a house. I saw a lot of church vans with tags from Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Arkansas. Mysteriously, not a lot from Northern California.
A man said to the universe:
“Sir I exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”
len, if this is what you mean by the universe being agnostic, then I am with you. But the world will work without us. We do not make it work. We only try to describe the conditions in which we see it, and understand our place in it. So you are losing me a bit when you speak of all of this wiring and the puppet masters.
Otherwise I wish to leave the metaphysics of it all alone, and speak only to the condition of the modern man, as we relate to each other. And as we relate to this political process that is the matter at hand.
I am with you almost completely with your reasoning. The reason Obama resonates with me is because he speaks the language to get beyond this divide that has been happening. Obama’s supporters would do well to follow his lead in his use of rhetoric and lay of the name-calling. These kinds of things come from a place of fear and anger, and are not productive when it comes to finding out the real Values of the candidates. It is quite obviously a strategy being used to distract. And people are playing into it.
These values you speak of are key. And I am with you when you push. So it is curious to me when you have projected onto Miss Palin the moniker of a throat-cutter, when you know nothing of her. I simply do not see it. Whenever someone has to continuously state they they ARE the toughest guy/girl around, it usually means the opposite. But maybe it is this wiring that you speak of, and I am just not wired correctly to understand the level of hardcore killer that exists inside the husk of Miss Palin.
My wiring leaves me to believe that I would rather have a young man that lived in an environment where being killed by another human is a real option sitting behind the hijackers, rather than a woman that grew up taking out elk from 300 yds with a .30-06.
Miss Palin is no throat-slitter. She is a harlequin. And no amount of bad wiring is going to change that. And you can do all of the pushing to the center you want, but in a democracy, your vote is what counts.
So instead of manipulating candidates to the center (that is what G-Dub did), it may be best to force our vaulted media to abandon the reality show that is out electoral process, force candidates to actually tell us what their Values are, and then choose which suits you best. Because Values are a constant and it is best to know what you are getting when you pull the lever.
A man said to the universe:
“Sir I exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”
len, if this is what you mean by the universe being agnostic, then I am with you. But the world will work without us. We do not make it work. We only try to describe the conditions in which we see it, and understand our place in it. So you are losing me a bit when you speak of all of this wiring and the puppet masters.
Otherwise I wish to leave the metaphysics of it all alone, and speak only to the condition of the modern man, as we relate to each other. And as we relate to this political process that is the matter at hand.
I am with you almost completely with your reasoning. The reason Obama resonates with me is because he speaks the language to get beyond this divide that has been happening. Obama’s supporters would do well to follow his lead in his use of rhetoric and lay of the name-calling. These kinds of things come from a place of fear and anger, and are not productive when it comes to finding out the real Values of the candidates. It is quite obviously a strategy being used to distract. And people are playing into it.
These values you speak of are key. And I am with you when you push. So it is curious to me when you have projected onto Miss Palin the moniker of a throat-cutter, when you know nothing of her. I simply do not see it. Whenever someone has to continuously state they they ARE the toughest guy/girl around, it usually means the opposite. But maybe it is this wiring that you speak of, and I am just not wired correctly to understand the level of hardcore killer that exists inside the husk of Miss Palin.
My wiring leaves me to believe that I would rather have a young man that lived in an environment where being killed by another human is a real option sitting behind the hijackers, rather than a woman that grew up taking out elk from 300 yds with a .30-06.
Miss Palin is no throat-slitter. She is a harlequin. And no amount of bad wiring is going to change that. And you can do all of the pushing to the center you want, but in a democracy, your vote is what counts.
So instead of manipulating candidates to the center (that is what G-Dub did), it may be best to force our vaulted media to abandon the reality show that is out electoral process, force candidates to actually tell us what their Values are, and then choose which suits you best. Because Values are a constant and it is best to know what you are getting when you pull the lever.
I’m listening to McCain on CNN right now. Obama is up next. This topic is being talked.
I think Palin can because of the photos of her dressing the moose. My sense of her is that she is determined and cold enough to do it.
A friend of mine who was a naval commander had a friend who was also a seal on the first airplane. Odds are, he tried, so the question is rhetorical, a Kobayashi Moru.
Obama doesn’t resonate with me. Neither does McCain. I’m watching for values and plans.
Brain wiring isn’t metaphysics. Do a bit of research into neuroscience and Hebb’s theory of dual trace wiring. It is really very hard for us to escape it, but we can. Conversation is one way but we can’t do it shouting at each other.
I came to this blog because of a single reference on a tech site to the Cranky thread. I’ve stayed because of the excellence of the minds and the tolerance for opposing viewpoints. I refrain from commenting on some blog entries because they are so clearly partisan and that’s Jon’s right. On others, such as Cranky, I really enjoy the people. I’m having fun with them, learning about other acts, and hearing voices from the other side of the country that I would not otherwise.
I grew up in a town where I was born and to which 200000 people came in a period of a few years to build rocket ships. I was one of the 15000 aborigines, a native, a redneck if you will. The first group were former enemies, German rocket scientists. My uncle who was pulled from a pile of dead bodies after the battle of the bulge wouldn’t even come to our house because our neighbors were former Nazis. Do you know what they did? They created the symphony. They created one of the best technical universities in America. They created the German language club, the public observatory where Mercury astronauts trained.
And they were the first most vocal group to demand the signs over the water fountains and the bathrooms come down. They by experience had come to understand the crime against humanity of apartheid, of the sub-human other. And they would not stand for it. When the government demanded they move to California to work on the Moon project, they told them they were citizens, this was their home, and the government could go screw themselves.
They stood up for the hillbillies who worked beside them to design and build the Saturn V, the only rocket of its kind that flew the first time and never failed.
In the bad, you may find the good. In the good, some go bad. You can’t just require people to stay in their stereotype. It’s like demanding that The Beatles once established as a pop-blues band remain that.
Mark Twain wrote in his story of the old man who died and went to heaven about the woman who had come to heaven looking for her baby who had died many years before, except the baby had elected to grow up and she not recognizing the baby she was looking for couldn’t see what the baby had become. He said they would come together by and by, but it would take a long time.
It may take a long time for the reds and the blues to find each other, but they will, by and by in a heaven of their own making, or a hell.
Choose wisely.
I’m listening to McCain on CNN right now. Obama is up next. This topic is being talked.
I think Palin can because of the photos of her dressing the moose. My sense of her is that she is determined and cold enough to do it.
A friend of mine who was a naval commander had a friend who was also a seal on the first airplane. Odds are, he tried, so the question is rhetorical, a Kobayashi Moru.
Obama doesn’t resonate with me. Neither does McCain. I’m watching for values and plans.
Brain wiring isn’t metaphysics. Do a bit of research into neuroscience and Hebb’s theory of dual trace wiring. It is really very hard for us to escape it, but we can. Conversation is one way but we can’t do it shouting at each other.
I came to this blog because of a single reference on a tech site to the Cranky thread. I’ve stayed because of the excellence of the minds and the tolerance for opposing viewpoints. I refrain from commenting on some blog entries because they are so clearly partisan and that’s Jon’s right. On others, such as Cranky, I really enjoy the people. I’m having fun with them, learning about other acts, and hearing voices from the other side of the country that I would not otherwise.
I grew up in a town where I was born and to which 200000 people came in a period of a few years to build rocket ships. I was one of the 15000 aborigines, a native, a redneck if you will. The first group were former enemies, German rocket scientists. My uncle who was pulled from a pile of dead bodies after the battle of the bulge wouldn’t even come to our house because our neighbors were former Nazis. Do you know what they did? They created the symphony. They created one of the best technical universities in America. They created the German language club, the public observatory where Mercury astronauts trained.
And they were the first most vocal group to demand the signs over the water fountains and the bathrooms come down. They by experience had come to understand the crime against humanity of apartheid, of the sub-human other. And they would not stand for it. When the government demanded they move to California to work on the Moon project, they told them they were citizens, this was their home, and the government could go screw themselves.
They stood up for the hillbillies who worked beside them to design and build the Saturn V, the only rocket of its kind that flew the first time and never failed.
In the bad, you may find the good. In the good, some go bad. You can’t just require people to stay in their stereotype. It’s like demanding that The Beatles once established as a pop-blues band remain that.
Mark Twain wrote in his story of the old man who died and went to heaven about the woman who had come to heaven looking for her baby who had died many years before, except the baby had elected to grow up and she not recognizing the baby she was looking for couldn’t see what the baby had become. He said they would come together by and by, but it would take a long time.
It may take a long time for the reds and the blues to find each other, but they will, by and by in a heaven of their own making, or a hell.
Choose wisely.
I worked my sorry red-necked ass off to become the educated, privileged, chardonnay-sipping liberal that I am today. I am the poster child for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps – put myself through college and then graduate school. It wasn’t particularly easy, with my background, but I am a very driven person.
My less educated brothers and (to a certain extent) my parents are angry at me for getting an education, for having moved into a different class than what we grew up with. They’ve accused my partner of “making up words”, they’ve yelled at me for being “too conventional” (strangely – I am gay and married), and they are convinced that I look down on them. They are virulently anti-intellectual. I will say in their defense that all of them are liberal democrats, even though they resent the hell out of me. But I have no idea how we will overcome a cultural divide so deep that even trying to get an education is offensive to so many.
As far as I am concerned, gutting the educational system (thank you, Ronald Reagan) has created a permanent, angry underclass and I don’t see any hope for change until education is brought back to the forefront. An educated people are infinitely better equipped to fight for themselves and for those less fortunate. And people who have never learned the basics of critical thinking will continue to make these disastrous decisions and will continue to be easily manipulated into acting against their own best interests.
Nice blog, good reading. Thanks a bunch.
I worked my sorry red-necked ass off to become the educated, privileged, chardonnay-sipping liberal that I am today. I am the poster child for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps – put myself through college and then graduate school. It wasn’t particularly easy, with my background, but I am a very driven person.
My less educated brothers and (to a certain extent) my parents are angry at me for getting an education, for having moved into a different class than what we grew up with. They’ve accused my partner of “making up words”, they’ve yelled at me for being “too conventional” (strangely – I am gay and married), and they are convinced that I look down on them. They are virulently anti-intellectual. I will say in their defense that all of them are liberal democrats, even though they resent the hell out of me. But I have no idea how we will overcome a cultural divide so deep that even trying to get an education is offensive to so many.
As far as I am concerned, gutting the educational system (thank you, Ronald Reagan) has created a permanent, angry underclass and I don’t see any hope for change until education is brought back to the forefront. An educated people are infinitely better equipped to fight for themselves and for those less fortunate. And people who have never learned the basics of critical thinking will continue to make these disastrous decisions and will continue to be easily manipulated into acting against their own best interests.
Nice blog, good reading. Thanks a bunch.
Teresa- Thanks for the props. I think you’re right that the Reagan Revolution (and out in California Prop 13) gutted the public school system.
No wonder people are angry and don’t know who to blame.
Teresa- Thanks for the props. I think you’re right that the Reagan Revolution (and out in California Prop 13) gutted the public school system.
No wonder people are angry and don’t know who to blame.
AJ and Len-Those last two entries are as good as you guys have ever written. AJ- the line “Miss Palin is no throat-slitter. She is a harlequin. And no amount of bad wiring is going to change that.” is as good as Hunter Thompson.
Len the stuff about Van Braun and the “No Colored” signs over the door was magnificent.
A little story. When I first started working full time for The Band in 1969 , I came back to LA in the late spring to get ready for our debut at Winterland in San Francisco. And the guys played me the first mix of “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”. And I was this college kid who had worked for SNCC and here was this wonderful singer Levon Helm telling the poor cracker’s point of view on the Civil War. And I found myself crying partially at the perfection of the art, but also the empathy with Levon’s “Character”- Virgil Caine.
And then when Levon began to tell me stories of visiting Sonny Boy Williamson in West Memphis, the boundaries of my understanding of class in Southern America widened. I actually think that Barack and Michelle speak more to that world of the poor (no matter what color) than do John and Cindy McCain
AJ and Len-Those last two entries are as good as you guys have ever written. AJ- the line “Miss Palin is no throat-slitter. She is a harlequin. And no amount of bad wiring is going to change that.” is as good as Hunter Thompson.
Len the stuff about Van Braun and the “No Colored” signs over the door was magnificent.
A little story. When I first started working full time for The Band in 1969 , I came back to LA in the late spring to get ready for our debut at Winterland in San Francisco. And the guys played me the first mix of “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”. And I was this college kid who had worked for SNCC and here was this wonderful singer Levon Helm telling the poor cracker’s point of view on the Civil War. And I found myself crying partially at the perfection of the art, but also the empathy with Levon’s “Character”- Virgil Caine.
And then when Levon began to tell me stories of visiting Sonny Boy Williamson in West Memphis, the boundaries of my understanding of class in Southern America widened. I actually think that Barack and Michelle speak more to that world of the poor (no matter what color) than do John and Cindy McCain
Here’s the problem in a large nutshell. Here’s the issue with irony so heavy and magnetic it’s lodestone, thanks to Randy Newman:
Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he’s our fool
If they think they’re better than him they’re wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that’s where I made this song
We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We’re too dumb to make it in no Northern town
And we’re keepin’ the niggers down
We got no-necked oilmen from Texas
And good ol’ boys from Tennessee
And colleges men from LSU
Went in dumb. Come out dumb too
Hustlin’ ’round Atlanta in their alligator shoes
Gettin’ drunk every weekend at the barbecues
And they’re keepin’ the niggers down
CHORUS
We’re rednecks, rednecks
And we don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground
We’re rednecks, we’re rednecks
And we’re keeping the niggers down
Now your northern nigger’s a Negro
You see he’s got his dignity
Down here we’re too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free
Yes he’s free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he’s free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he’s free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They’re gatherin’ ‘em up from miles around
Keepin’ the niggers down
CHORUS
Here’s the problem in a large nutshell. Here’s the issue with irony so heavy and magnetic it’s lodestone, thanks to Randy Newman:
Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he’s our fool
If they think they’re better than him they’re wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that’s where I made this song
We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We’re too dumb to make it in no Northern town
And we’re keepin’ the niggers down
We got no-necked oilmen from Texas
And good ol’ boys from Tennessee
And colleges men from LSU
Went in dumb. Come out dumb too
Hustlin’ ’round Atlanta in their alligator shoes
Gettin’ drunk every weekend at the barbecues
And they’re keepin’ the niggers down
CHORUS
We’re rednecks, rednecks
And we don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground
We’re rednecks, we’re rednecks
And we’re keeping the niggers down
Now your northern nigger’s a Negro
You see he’s got his dignity
Down here we’re too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free
Yes he’s free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he’s free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he’s free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he’s free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They’re gatherin’ ‘em up from miles around
Keepin’ the niggers down
CHORUS
Here is something perplexing.
Around 80% of the population of the US is self-identified Christian.
Around 5% of the population of the US is self-identified gay.
How is it that so many of the 80% are so threatened by the 5%?
Here is something perplexing.
Around 80% of the population of the US is self-identified Christian.
Around 5% of the population of the US is self-identified gay.
How is it that so many of the 80% are so threatened by the 5%?
They think it’s contagious. Really… The contagion may be psychological in it’s most real form, but to those who are rabidly afraid, it’s as real as the ground ‘neath your feet.
The problem is (for men) the “accepted” definition for manliness…a definition that has nothing whatsoever to do with your or my ability to impregnate women…the rawest manifestation of being a man…nor with the higher level of that…being a good dad to a boy or girl child. It has everything to do with macho swagger as all to often manifested in violence and domination over others, both male and female. Hence the association with war and domination driven sports…football, hockey, etc.
The problem with so many self-identified Christians is that they do not walk Jesus’ talk. Do you think Jesus would carry a gun? Would he keep gays out of his congregation? Would he choose war over diplomacy? Too much of Christianity is so far afield of Jesus’ life as we know of it it’s just sick. Don’t forget that the Nazi’s had God on their side…
They think it’s contagious. Really… The contagion may be psychological in it’s most real form, but to those who are rabidly afraid, it’s as real as the ground ‘neath your feet.
The problem is (for men) the “accepted” definition for manliness…a definition that has nothing whatsoever to do with your or my ability to impregnate women…the rawest manifestation of being a man…nor with the higher level of that…being a good dad to a boy or girl child. It has everything to do with macho swagger as all to often manifested in violence and domination over others, both male and female. Hence the association with war and domination driven sports…football, hockey, etc.
The problem with so many self-identified Christians is that they do not walk Jesus’ talk. Do you think Jesus would carry a gun? Would he keep gays out of his congregation? Would he choose war over diplomacy? Too much of Christianity is so far afield of Jesus’ life as we know of it it’s just sick. Don’t forget that the Nazi’s had God on their side…
BTW, Randy Newman was very clear that “redneck”edness is not a Southern Hillbilly trait… Step right up! We gotcher city-billy rednecks right here, boy! There’s a nice Boston redneck; and over there is a New York piece of nice work. Hmmm, West Coast has its share, too!
BTW, Randy Newman was very clear that “redneck”edness is not a Southern Hillbilly trait… Step right up! We gotcher city-billy rednecks right here, boy! There’s a nice Boston redneck; and over there is a New York piece of nice work. Hmmm, West Coast has its share, too!
“So my alternative then is Step n Fetchit with a law degree?”
Len?
“So my alternative then is Step n Fetchit with a law degree?”
Len?
Another Jon, this is why this is going to work — faith. That’s right, faith. Why? Because at least 51% percent, but probably a bit more, Americans are smarter than that. They’ll get it. By election time, they will have understood Palin for exactly what she is, both the big message and the minutia of her character; even if it’s in a fully sub-conscious, felt out, sort of way, assimilating all the things they’ve learned about her for those ~4 months.
The beauty is, on the issues — especially economics — there is no contest between the two camp’s messages. One might have warriors, but the other has a well-presented vision of the future that is slightly, if much less, war-ish; peaceful even. and I think that appeals to everybody at this point. The war has siphoned off money for all classes, and if the southern voter feels it, they might get to the bottom of what’s causing it.
Obama is a good leader who has a pedigree — is a good speaker — who won’t pat the Japanese Prime Minister on the back and throw up. I wish we could present him in such terms. Then, the choice would be obvious.
Another Jon, this is why this is going to work — faith. That’s right, faith. Why? Because at least 51% percent, but probably a bit more, Americans are smarter than that. They’ll get it. By election time, they will have understood Palin for exactly what she is, both the big message and the minutia of her character; even if it’s in a fully sub-conscious, felt out, sort of way, assimilating all the things they’ve learned about her for those ~4 months.
The beauty is, on the issues — especially economics — there is no contest between the two camp’s messages. One might have warriors, but the other has a well-presented vision of the future that is slightly, if much less, war-ish; peaceful even. and I think that appeals to everybody at this point. The war has siphoned off money for all classes, and if the southern voter feels it, they might get to the bottom of what’s causing it.
Obama is a good leader who has a pedigree — is a good speaker — who won’t pat the Japanese Prime Minister on the back and throw up. I wish we could present him in such terms. Then, the choice would be obvious.
Dressing a moose vs. slitting a throat. If that is enough for you than I have no argument. But with that said, I appreciate your POV len, and welome your opinions.
Also…I need to do no looking into neuroscience or anyone’s “theory” on brain function. I am deeply involved. Your agnostic world view should warn you that those theories are just that. I like to delve deeper…the anthropic principle and all. You can look that one up. I hope you understand and forgive me. If I start believing in theories of neuroscience, I might as well start believing in god as well.
Jon, any comparison to HST is beyond a compliment for me. So I appreciate it. I need to say that I find this space you have created here to be a wonderful respite from the dialogue that exists elsewhere. I have been refraining from contributing a bit because of the tenor of some of the conversations. But the content in THIS thread is key.
The dynamic of this divide is what our politics has become about. And the participants on both sides feed into it. Len hit on the crux of the issue in his lamentation about the absent values of each candidate. Our finger pointing should be directed solely at out impotent media though.
When I see the knee-jerk reactions to call the supporters of McCain/Palin “stupid” I find myself questioning why some of us feel the need to do that. I say that because I have done it myself. But I know people that are empathetic and sympathetic to the message they are conveying. And they are not stupid, so all of the name calling and finger pointing is not productive when it comes to finding the right candidate the lead the country.
If we are to have a dialogue than let us have a dialogue, and leave the theatre to the actors.
It is an important question though to define what it is that causes the cultural divide. Or what are the symptoms. Or whatever. We already know that it is there and calling attention to it can create an atmosphere where the most unqualified person can get the job. It is this theatre of the absurd that baffles me. And questioning the causes of it can help bring it to a resolution. I hope.
Dressing a moose vs. slitting a throat. If that is enough for you than I have no argument. But with that said, I appreciate your POV len, and welome your opinions.
Also…I need to do no looking into neuroscience or anyone’s “theory” on brain function. I am deeply involved. Your agnostic world view should warn you that those theories are just that. I like to delve deeper…the anthropic principle and all. You can look that one up. I hope you understand and forgive me. If I start believing in theories of neuroscience, I might as well start believing in god as well.
Jon, any comparison to HST is beyond a compliment for me. So I appreciate it. I need to say that I find this space you have created here to be a wonderful respite from the dialogue that exists elsewhere. I have been refraining from contributing a bit because of the tenor of some of the conversations. But the content in THIS thread is key.
The dynamic of this divide is what our politics has become about. And the participants on both sides feed into it. Len hit on the crux of the issue in his lamentation about the absent values of each candidate. Our finger pointing should be directed solely at out impotent media though.
When I see the knee-jerk reactions to call the supporters of McCain/Palin “stupid” I find myself questioning why some of us feel the need to do that. I say that because I have done it myself. But I know people that are empathetic and sympathetic to the message they are conveying. And they are not stupid, so all of the name calling and finger pointing is not productive when it comes to finding the right candidate the lead the country.
If we are to have a dialogue than let us have a dialogue, and leave the theatre to the actors.
It is an important question though to define what it is that causes the cultural divide. Or what are the symptoms. Or whatever. We already know that it is there and calling attention to it can create an atmosphere where the most unqualified person can get the job. It is this theatre of the absurd that baffles me. And questioning the causes of it can help bring it to a resolution. I hope.
Len:
“Do you know what a stereotype that is?”
Thanks for the condescension–yes, I do.
“You are deeply bought into an image and that enables others to wire your brain. ”
I wonder, have you actually read what I’ve said?
What I’ve said is that in my perception, the problem is NOT a redneck issue. The problem is people who fear attempts to reason things out, and lash out with anger at anyone who does. And that those people do NOT match up to the “redneck” image.
Did you get that?
Regardless, I’m now done with this topic.
Len:
“Do you know what a stereotype that is?”
Thanks for the condescension–yes, I do.
“You are deeply bought into an image and that enables others to wire your brain. ”
I wonder, have you actually read what I’ve said?
What I’ve said is that in my perception, the problem is NOT a redneck issue. The problem is people who fear attempts to reason things out, and lash out with anger at anyone who does. And that those people do NOT match up to the “redneck” image.
Did you get that?
Regardless, I’m now done with this topic.
The Republicans have been exploiting low-information fear for many years now. Unfortunately, it works. It connects at the gut level. Hence Palin’s apparent linking of 9/11 to Saddam Hussein and the Iraq war. That’s a perfect example of how paranoia based beliefs get stuck in people’s brains. Let’s just hope that 51% of the electorate aren’t stuck in that mindset this time around, but don’t be surprised if they are. Too many people would like to see “that nice woman” get ahead, and besides, she’d have lots of people around her to help her figure out which button to push…the red one…
The Republicans have been exploiting low-information fear for many years now. Unfortunately, it works. It connects at the gut level. Hence Palin’s apparent linking of 9/11 to Saddam Hussein and the Iraq war. That’s a perfect example of how paranoia based beliefs get stuck in people’s brains. Let’s just hope that 51% of the electorate aren’t stuck in that mindset this time around, but don’t be surprised if they are. Too many people would like to see “that nice woman” get ahead, and besides, she’d have lots of people around her to help her figure out which button to push…the red one…
@dan: “The problem is people who fear attempts to reason things out, and lash out with anger at anyone who does. And that those people do NOT match up to the “redneck” image.”
No, I didn’t get that. Thanks for the clarification. Rednecks aren’t a problem. It’s just another label.
Fear is a real problem, and there is plenty of that to go around. When we can’t trust the media to be objective, when there is a 24 hour media blitz by all sides, when everyone is yelling, people get uptight and then their brains shut down.
The Democrats kept being beaten by a very astute spin machine so they decided to get one of their own. Now we have two of the beasts on the loose and nowhere to get trustworthy information. Classic Spy Vs Spy.
Rick: Obama’s credibility has been erased by his own supporters playing Us Vs Them. Palin dissolved his mojo by the oldest trick there is: A New Kid In Town.
So now it’s a real Battle of the Bands.
@dan: “The problem is people who fear attempts to reason things out, and lash out with anger at anyone who does. And that those people do NOT match up to the “redneck” image.”
No, I didn’t get that. Thanks for the clarification. Rednecks aren’t a problem. It’s just another label.
Fear is a real problem, and there is plenty of that to go around. When we can’t trust the media to be objective, when there is a 24 hour media blitz by all sides, when everyone is yelling, people get uptight and then their brains shut down.
The Democrats kept being beaten by a very astute spin machine so they decided to get one of their own. Now we have two of the beasts on the loose and nowhere to get trustworthy information. Classic Spy Vs Spy.
Rick: Obama’s credibility has been erased by his own supporters playing Us Vs Them. Palin dissolved his mojo by the oldest trick there is: A New Kid In Town.
So now it’s a real Battle of the Bands.
If that bothers you T-Bone, I sympathize. But here’s the deal: labels are being slung right AND left. If you have spent anytime on the mainstream news blogs, it’s been very ugly for a long time. The Obama supporters came out early with the name calling and threats. Last spring within the first week of posting a blog supporting Clinton, I was receiving threatening phone calls in the middle of the night. Obama’s campaign decided to keep him out of the fray and use surrogates. They are paying thousands of bloggers according to some reports to stir the pot.
The main threat has been to call anyone who was not for Obama “racist”. As someone who lived through the days of George Wallace, that is right up there with ‘nigger’ if you had to fight racism as some of us did. We had to fight our own families. Then we endured the mau mauing in school from both sides.
Are there bigots? Yes. They come in all colors, sizes and creeds. What do you call an anti-bigot?
These days they seem to be called fools. Should I accept that? I don’t think so.
The mainstream used names on Hillary Clinton that will never be forgotten by her supporters and that, not Palin specifically, is why PUMA exists.
So if the redneck meme is to be tossed around, if we are to be labeled hillbillies, Ellie Maes, Bodines, all the little sly cuts, then the other names are coming out too. This will get uglier than anything you think you remember. Will we burn the cities again? This isn’t a threat. As someone who works in the public safety industry, I’ve studied the cases, the Kerner Report, the events in Cinncinnati in 2001. It doesn’t take much to light that match, but it takes a lot of effort to put it out.
And this is precisely what I’ve been warning the Obama camp about here and elsewhere since last winter. At the other end of the campaign, racial sensitivity will be at the lowest it has been in five decades. The N word will become acceptable.
I used an old actor’s name against another character’s name as a way to point out how this will go. A very volatile mixture was put together by the Obama camp. The mau mauing in the caucuses in Iowa and Texas was evident. The threats were evident for the black congressmen who didn’t support Obama.
The ends do not justify the means, and at the end of the night, a band that uses the mean drum finds itself in a parking lot full of people ready to fight. And deservedly so.
I grew up buttermilk if you understand that slang. I’ve no use for either side of this bitter butter battle but if that is what it takes for Obama to beat McCain, Obama needs to lose.
America may just need another four years to figure out what Stephen Vincent Benét and Washington Irving were trying to say lest we all wake up and realize what Old Scratch has in mind with his stacked jury “for it was him they’d come for, not only Jabez Stone”.
There is no Us vs Them. There is a class war for power but few of us are members of those classes. There is Us and unless we want to Burn Baby Burn, we might best remember what Old Scratch said: “I am merely an honest American like yourself – and of the best descent – for, to tell the truth, Mr. Webster, though I don’t like to boast of it, my name is older in this country than yours.”
If that bothers you T-Bone, I sympathize. But here’s the deal: labels are being slung right AND left. If you have spent anytime on the mainstream news blogs, it’s been very ugly for a long time. The Obama supporters came out early with the name calling and threats. Last spring within the first week of posting a blog supporting Clinton, I was receiving threatening phone calls in the middle of the night. Obama’s campaign decided to keep him out of the fray and use surrogates. They are paying thousands of bloggers according to some reports to stir the pot.
The main threat has been to call anyone who was not for Obama “racist”. As someone who lived through the days of George Wallace, that is right up there with ‘nigger’ if you had to fight racism as some of us did. We had to fight our own families. Then we endured the mau mauing in school from both sides.
Are there bigots? Yes. They come in all colors, sizes and creeds. What do you call an anti-bigot?
These days they seem to be called fools. Should I accept that? I don’t think so.
The mainstream used names on Hillary Clinton that will never be forgotten by her supporters and that, not Palin specifically, is why PUMA exists.
So if the redneck meme is to be tossed around, if we are to be labeled hillbillies, Ellie Maes, Bodines, all the little sly cuts, then the other names are coming out too. This will get uglier than anything you think you remember. Will we burn the cities again? This isn’t a threat. As someone who works in the public safety industry, I’ve studied the cases, the Kerner Report, the events in Cinncinnati in 2001. It doesn’t take much to light that match, but it takes a lot of effort to put it out.
And this is precisely what I’ve been warning the Obama camp about here and elsewhere since last winter. At the other end of the campaign, racial sensitivity will be at the lowest it has been in five decades. The N word will become acceptable.
I used an old actor’s name against another character’s name as a way to point out how this will go. A very volatile mixture was put together by the Obama camp. The mau mauing in the caucuses in Iowa and Texas was evident. The threats were evident for the black congressmen who didn’t support Obama.
The ends do not justify the means, and at the end of the night, a band that uses the mean drum finds itself in a parking lot full of people ready to fight. And deservedly so.
I grew up buttermilk if you understand that slang. I’ve no use for either side of this bitter butter battle but if that is what it takes for Obama to beat McCain, Obama needs to lose.
America may just need another four years to figure out what Stephen Vincent Benét and Washington Irving were trying to say lest we all wake up and realize what Old Scratch has in mind with his stacked jury “for it was him they’d come for, not only Jabez Stone”.
There is no Us vs Them. There is a class war for power but few of us are members of those classes. There is Us and unless we want to Burn Baby Burn, we might best remember what Old Scratch said: “I am merely an honest American like yourself – and of the best descent – for, to tell the truth, Mr. Webster, though I don’t like to boast of it, my name is older in this country than yours.”
“If you had spoken Farsi and understood the conversations of the men sitting in front of you, would you have reached around the seat and cut their throats?” – If we ever get attacked by Iranians this might help, but our last few terror attacks have been by Arab and English speakers. Most of the Farsi I hear in the US is from Iranian exiles who are none too fond of the current Iranian regime.
—-
If you look at politics you will often find an alliance between the folks at the top and the folks near the bottom against the folks in the middle. The Romans, for example, had their senatorial class who pandered to the lowly citizens (slaves didn’t vote) who both looked down on the equestrians. The emperors knew how to play this, and they played to the mob, even after the republic was ended. The difference was that now the senators were in the middle. Of course, the senators and the knights wrote the histories, so our view of the Roman emperors, especially the earlier emperors, is colored by this.
You get this alliance in many kingdoms. The lower classes complain about the vizier, or the cossacks, or whatever else afflicts them, but they are loyal to their king, just a regular guy. Hell, the Kaiser used to make a big thing of cutting wood to show he was a man of the people. It is a workable political dynamic.
I don’t think Bush sat around reading Tacitus and his ilk when he decided that the scion of an aristocratic New England family would do well to play the role of a bluff Texan if he intended to do well in politics. People haven’t been voting for New England patricians in a while. When they voted for a New England president they voted for a damned Irishman. Bush probably just figured he’d need to change his image, though he didn’t have to change his politics all that much.
—-
I’ll also agree with Arne that the Scots Irish played a major role in the US revolution. The Scots Irish were Scotts who were moved to Ireland to pacify the native Irish population. They knew how this kind of colonization worked. When George III started changing his policies in the New World colonies, they knew precisely what he was doing. Their ancestors had done it for his ancestors, and now they wanted no part of being on the receiving side.
“If you had spoken Farsi and understood the conversations of the men sitting in front of you, would you have reached around the seat and cut their throats?” – If we ever get attacked by Iranians this might help, but our last few terror attacks have been by Arab and English speakers. Most of the Farsi I hear in the US is from Iranian exiles who are none too fond of the current Iranian regime.
—-
If you look at politics you will often find an alliance between the folks at the top and the folks near the bottom against the folks in the middle. The Romans, for example, had their senatorial class who pandered to the lowly citizens (slaves didn’t vote) who both looked down on the equestrians. The emperors knew how to play this, and they played to the mob, even after the republic was ended. The difference was that now the senators were in the middle. Of course, the senators and the knights wrote the histories, so our view of the Roman emperors, especially the earlier emperors, is colored by this.
You get this alliance in many kingdoms. The lower classes complain about the vizier, or the cossacks, or whatever else afflicts them, but they are loyal to their king, just a regular guy. Hell, the Kaiser used to make a big thing of cutting wood to show he was a man of the people. It is a workable political dynamic.
I don’t think Bush sat around reading Tacitus and his ilk when he decided that the scion of an aristocratic New England family would do well to play the role of a bluff Texan if he intended to do well in politics. People haven’t been voting for New England patricians in a while. When they voted for a New England president they voted for a damned Irishman. Bush probably just figured he’d need to change his image, though he didn’t have to change his politics all that much.
—-
I’ll also agree with Arne that the Scots Irish played a major role in the US revolution. The Scots Irish were Scotts who were moved to Ireland to pacify the native Irish population. They knew how this kind of colonization worked. When George III started changing his policies in the New World colonies, they knew precisely what he was doing. Their ancestors had done it for his ancestors, and now they wanted no part of being on the receiving side.
Big thanks to Len Bullard for the moving account of man’s humanity to man. (“I grew up in a town where I was born and to which 200000 people came in a period of a few years to build rocket ships.”)
I posted a substantial excerpt at Tower of Babel blog, where I’m a contributing author:
http://en.towerofbabel.com/blog/2008/09/17/rocket-scientists-and-hillbillies/
~ Karl Jones
Big thanks to Len Bullard for the moving account of man’s humanity to man. (“I grew up in a town where I was born and to which 200000 people came in a period of a few years to build rocket ships.”)
I posted a substantial excerpt at Tower of Babel blog, where I’m a contributing author:
http://en.towerofbabel.com/blog/2008/09/17/rocket-scientists-and-hillbillies/
~ Karl Jones