The Cost of Fear
I wrote a post yesterday on the fact that we now have 1 million people on the terrorist watch list. A Muslim nano tech researcher wrote a comment from Canada about how rational our discussion was.
It’s great to see rational responses from all the folks. I’m afraid to go to states and the reason is that I’m a muslim. I’m nano tech researcher by profession. I was given a job in states with a salary that I had never even dreamed of but I opted to go for it. I accepted a less competent offer by a Canadian company.
I hold no grudges against US or I don’t have any agendas but simply the fear that I’ll be categorized as a terrorist or even spied on because of my religion is kind of scary.
And I’m a modern muslim by all standards like I drink or I go out and party but still the whole “terrorist” subject is blown out of proportion by the republicans.
Someday we will look back on the hysteria of the last few years and regard it like the Salem Witch Trials. What a sad commentary on a country that once welcomed Einstein even though he was a socialist. Think of all the smart young Muslim kids who are not coming here.
There’s been zero negative impact from this…. until H1-B quotas are dropped, you don’t have to worry about any great Muslims not coming here. There are plenty of greater non-Muslims we can’t get brought in to work.
Not having access to great brains is a Democrat problem that has nothing to do with terror. Focus on the right stuff. Blame the right party.
There’s been zero negative impact from this…. until H1-B quotas are dropped, you don’t have to worry about any great Muslims not coming here. There are plenty of greater non-Muslims we can’t get brought in to work.
Not having access to great brains is a Democrat problem that has nothing to do with terror. Focus on the right stuff. Blame the right party.
Perhaps a bit more McCarthy than Salem in this case. Though I could be splitting hairs.
Perhaps a bit more McCarthy than Salem in this case. Though I could be splitting hairs.
Well, one of the witch punishments was pretty close to waterboarding. If the witch drowned, she or he was innocent and God would take care of the soul. If they didn’t, they were guilty. Hell of a logic system…
Then there was Europe where cats were eliminated as being familiars of the devil. So the rats who were the hosts for “Justinian’s Fleas” proliferated and there was wave after wave of bubonic plague. Google for the book “Justinian’s Flea”…it’s a fascinating account of the spread of the plague into Europe from…the Middle East.
Well, one of the witch punishments was pretty close to waterboarding. If the witch drowned, she or he was innocent and God would take care of the soul. If they didn’t, they were guilty. Hell of a logic system…
Then there was Europe where cats were eliminated as being familiars of the devil. So the rats who were the hosts for “Justinian’s Fleas” proliferated and there was wave after wave of bubonic plague. Google for the book “Justinian’s Flea”…it’s a fascinating account of the spread of the plague into Europe from…the Middle East.
Land of the Free…. or something…
Land of the Free…. or something…
The most ridiculous terminology associated with this new McCarthyism has evolved. Some of the terms are downright embarrassing like “Islamofascism”, while others, like “al-Qaeda” simply aren’t accurate at all.
The most ridiculous terminology associated with this new McCarthyism has evolved. Some of the terms are downright embarrassing like “Islamofascism”, while others, like “al-Qaeda” simply aren’t accurate at all.
Morgan,
You’re nuts as usual — and I mean that in the nicest way
Before 9/11 we imported all the IIT-educated engineers from India and settled them here in the U.S. After 9/11 there was a clamp down on immigration — directly induced by fear of scary brown people — which set of a spectacular gold-rush of corporate off-shoring. Before 9/11 there was nothing technologically preventing US firms from employing talented people in India and elsewhere in their home countries. It took the change in atmosphere after 9/11 to prompt a major change in behavior. Look into the price of land near Bangalore sometime.
Of course this trend was inevitable — US companies weren’t going to leave that money on the table indefinitely. But I’m still looking for the major trend to “off-shore” jobs from tech centers to pockets of the American interior. American firms have looked to India first because India had so many highly trained people — proverbial low-hanging fruit — ready to hire. Here in the US there’s the annoying problem of fixing the educational system and the incentives which prompt smart kids from the plains to go into law or banking or something. No point in bothering with making stuff. /snark
Of course the implosion of the American banking system would take care of those incentives if the Feds weren’t taking such tender loving care of their fellow members of the ruling class (sorry, there is simply no other word for it anymore, be glad I don’t call them hereditary noblemen which isn’t far from the truth either) among banking executives. Sure let’s all buy stock in Phony and Fraudie lest some Yalie suffer some modest truncation in wealth.
Maybe we can agree that the banking bailouts are socialist? What do you say, Morgan?
Morgan,
You’re nuts as usual — and I mean that in the nicest way
Before 9/11 we imported all the IIT-educated engineers from India and settled them here in the U.S. After 9/11 there was a clamp down on immigration — directly induced by fear of scary brown people — which set of a spectacular gold-rush of corporate off-shoring. Before 9/11 there was nothing technologically preventing US firms from employing talented people in India and elsewhere in their home countries. It took the change in atmosphere after 9/11 to prompt a major change in behavior. Look into the price of land near Bangalore sometime.
Of course this trend was inevitable — US companies weren’t going to leave that money on the table indefinitely. But I’m still looking for the major trend to “off-shore” jobs from tech centers to pockets of the American interior. American firms have looked to India first because India had so many highly trained people — proverbial low-hanging fruit — ready to hire. Here in the US there’s the annoying problem of fixing the educational system and the incentives which prompt smart kids from the plains to go into law or banking or something. No point in bothering with making stuff. /snark
Of course the implosion of the American banking system would take care of those incentives if the Feds weren’t taking such tender loving care of their fellow members of the ruling class (sorry, there is simply no other word for it anymore, be glad I don’t call them hereditary noblemen which isn’t far from the truth either) among banking executives. Sure let’s all buy stock in Phony and Fraudie lest some Yalie suffer some modest truncation in wealth.
Maybe we can agree that the banking bailouts are socialist? What do you say, Morgan?
STS, I spent two years setting up cross border operations in India and have hired in China.
And be sure, the US would have been much better off if we simply let every high tech employer bring in as many of these guys as they want.
Was there a tightening after 911? Sure. But that’s a red herring. So is labor cost savings. Microsoft et al would take as many H1-Bs as they can get their hands on. It is a massive pain in the ass to outsource tech development, and the cost of Indian man months is going up at a fair clip.
Real issue is Dem Congress bending over for labor. And they need to get over it asap, guys who come here and make $75K+ a year, spend that money here getting haircuts, eating lunch out, etc. That money spends and re-spends in the service economy.
STS, I spent two years setting up cross border operations in India and have hired in China.
And be sure, the US would have been much better off if we simply let every high tech employer bring in as many of these guys as they want.
Was there a tightening after 911? Sure. But that’s a red herring. So is labor cost savings. Microsoft et al would take as many H1-Bs as they can get their hands on. It is a massive pain in the ass to outsource tech development, and the cost of Indian man months is going up at a fair clip.
Real issue is Dem Congress bending over for labor. And they need to get over it asap, guys who come here and make $75K+ a year, spend that money here getting haircuts, eating lunch out, etc. That money spends and re-spends in the service economy.
wow – I can’t believe I am agreeing with Morgan but I think he is shining an important light on this issue. Restrictions on recruitment of intelligent and talented people have been a serious limitation on US economic growth since well before 9-11. However, as a Canadian who has since returned home from many years of gainful employment in the US, it has gotten worse. Even though the fundamental problem is a dysfunctional immigration system that rewards the persistant at the expense of the talented who will simply give up and go elsewhere (thanks for this by the way, our economy in Canada will benefit!), there has been an increase in the xenophobic tone of discourse on immigration in the US. Even though the Bush Administration has not really made it more difficult for the typical talented immigrant, the perception of America as a potential home has suffered greatly. I have noticed a profound shift in attitude towards non-Americans and it is disturbing.
But still, the problem is more profound than racial profiling and restrictions on H1-B visas and the continued ‘thickening’ of the border as response to traditional Democratic interest groups, as well as the politics of fear practiced by the Republicans, is my major concern of an Obama presidency.
How this issue does not cost the American economy – an economy built on innovation and dynamism – is beyond me. Jon is right (as always) there is a cost to fear. And your competitors (Canada, Europe, Asia) will be the beneficiaries.
wow – I can’t believe I am agreeing with Morgan but I think he is shining an important light on this issue. Restrictions on recruitment of intelligent and talented people have been a serious limitation on US economic growth since well before 9-11. However, as a Canadian who has since returned home from many years of gainful employment in the US, it has gotten worse. Even though the fundamental problem is a dysfunctional immigration system that rewards the persistant at the expense of the talented who will simply give up and go elsewhere (thanks for this by the way, our economy in Canada will benefit!), there has been an increase in the xenophobic tone of discourse on immigration in the US. Even though the Bush Administration has not really made it more difficult for the typical talented immigrant, the perception of America as a potential home has suffered greatly. I have noticed a profound shift in attitude towards non-Americans and it is disturbing.
But still, the problem is more profound than racial profiling and restrictions on H1-B visas and the continued ‘thickening’ of the border as response to traditional Democratic interest groups, as well as the politics of fear practiced by the Republicans, is my major concern of an Obama presidency.
How this issue does not cost the American economy – an economy built on innovation and dynamism – is beyond me. Jon is right (as always) there is a cost to fear. And your competitors (Canada, Europe, Asia) will be the beneficiaries.
The US/Canada comparison is interesting. In the US, a lot of immigrants are forced to work there illegally, end end up as the invisible underclass doing all the jobs that no one else wants to do, at wages that no one else will work for.
In Canada, we invite skilled immigrants to work in Canada legally, however professional associations restrict a lot of immigrants from working in their areas of expertise, so we end up with a similar underclass doing the same work as in the US, but comprised of engineers, doctors, etc., who are here legally and therefore have rights, are more visible, and tend to make minimum wage.
From an economic perspective then, both countries are “benefiting” in similar ways from the exploitation of immigrants, and while both countries are in denial about it, the American situation is even worse because people are criminalized, demonized, and exploited all that the same time.
If the US allows immigrants into the country legally, they will undoubtedly find themselves in the same situation as we do in Canada (especially given the higher levels of workplace/employment discrimination), creating yet another underclass, who will effectively be competing for employment with the illegals. It’ll be quite the mess. The Canadian system is messed up, the American one is even worse…yet opening the doors to immigration is inevitable. It’ll be interesting to see how this unfolds.
The US/Canada comparison is interesting. In the US, a lot of immigrants are forced to work there illegally, end end up as the invisible underclass doing all the jobs that no one else wants to do, at wages that no one else will work for.
In Canada, we invite skilled immigrants to work in Canada legally, however professional associations restrict a lot of immigrants from working in their areas of expertise, so we end up with a similar underclass doing the same work as in the US, but comprised of engineers, doctors, etc., who are here legally and therefore have rights, are more visible, and tend to make minimum wage.
From an economic perspective then, both countries are “benefiting” in similar ways from the exploitation of immigrants, and while both countries are in denial about it, the American situation is even worse because people are criminalized, demonized, and exploited all that the same time.
If the US allows immigrants into the country legally, they will undoubtedly find themselves in the same situation as we do in Canada (especially given the higher levels of workplace/employment discrimination), creating yet another underclass, who will effectively be competing for employment with the illegals. It’ll be quite the mess. The Canadian system is messed up, the American one is even worse…yet opening the doors to immigration is inevitable. It’ll be interesting to see how this unfolds.
Our policy is not just affecting skilled workers from Eastern countries, we’re denying great intellectuals like Tariq Ramadan (the “Martin Luther of Islam”) and even Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens). And then we have the nerve to turn to the muslim world and demand more modern thinkers to rise up.
Our policy is not just affecting skilled workers from Eastern countries, we’re denying great intellectuals like Tariq Ramadan (the “Martin Luther of Islam”) and even Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens). And then we have the nerve to turn to the muslim world and demand more modern thinkers to rise up.
We have a lot of anecdotes here, but not much real data. Morgan says 9/11 and labor arbitrage are “red herrings” and the real story is Democrats serving selfish unions.
I think the Dem/union link is a factor, but it’s odd to put that first given that the relationship is frayed and hasn’t improved in recent years. On the other hand, 9/11 has dramatically shifted the country at large towards xenophobia.
As for the labor arbitrage, it’s just bizarre to say it doesn’t matter to Microsoft or other big companies. Sure it’s a “pain” to manage a global organization, but it’s a huge cost savings. It used to be a 10 to 1 cost savings, though the declining dollar and rising wages of overseas workers have trimmed that somewhat. For any large company that can cope with legal complexity and setting up the infrastructure, it’s an absolute no-brainer. It just took the “starting gun” of 9/11 to open the gates and start the race to hire all the well educated talent abroad.
I’m inclined to attribute a big change in the pace of white-collar off-shoring to the factor that has actually changed rather than rounding up the “usual suspects” (Dems/unions) that Republicans reflexively blame. They’ve been beating dead horses (unions, liberalism) that have been virtually defenseless for a generation.
We have a lot of anecdotes here, but not much real data. Morgan says 9/11 and labor arbitrage are “red herrings” and the real story is Democrats serving selfish unions.
I think the Dem/union link is a factor, but it’s odd to put that first given that the relationship is frayed and hasn’t improved in recent years. On the other hand, 9/11 has dramatically shifted the country at large towards xenophobia.
As for the labor arbitrage, it’s just bizarre to say it doesn’t matter to Microsoft or other big companies. Sure it’s a “pain” to manage a global organization, but it’s a huge cost savings. It used to be a 10 to 1 cost savings, though the declining dollar and rising wages of overseas workers have trimmed that somewhat. For any large company that can cope with legal complexity and setting up the infrastructure, it’s an absolute no-brainer. It just took the “starting gun” of 9/11 to open the gates and start the race to hire all the well educated talent abroad.
I’m inclined to attribute a big change in the pace of white-collar off-shoring to the factor that has actually changed rather than rounding up the “usual suspects” (Dems/unions) that Republicans reflexively blame. They’ve been beating dead horses (unions, liberalism) that have been virtually defenseless for a generation.
I’m with STS here. We have lived in a world of global labor arbitrage since the end of Bush 1. That pressure on wages (esp. in the US and Europe) has been unrelenting and now it is even affecting China as a lot of manufacturing is leaving for Vietnam.
What Melissa is saying is that Canada doesn’t have enough engineering positions for the number of engineering immigrants who have flooded their borders. That is not America’s problem. We are short enginneers. Finally, if the cost of green tech is going to follow a Moores Law curve down, then building stuff here is not that big a disadvantage. Intel’s Plants in Arizona are some of the most productive plants in the world.
I’m with STS here. We have lived in a world of global labor arbitrage since the end of Bush 1. That pressure on wages (esp. in the US and Europe) has been unrelenting and now it is even affecting China as a lot of manufacturing is leaving for Vietnam.
What Melissa is saying is that Canada doesn’t have enough engineering positions for the number of engineering immigrants who have flooded their borders. That is not America’s problem. We are short enginneers. Finally, if the cost of green tech is going to follow a Moores Law curve down, then building stuff here is not that big a disadvantage. Intel’s Plants in Arizona are some of the most productive plants in the world.